Find / Replace does not respect "down" setting - Page 2

mrmikel · 01-26-2014, 08:56 AM

As you are the developer, and a very able one, we must respect your decision.

I think this perspective though is likely to cause you support questions forever.

The way users think of it is replace all from here on down to the end, and if wrap is checked, continue back around to the start point.

A typical user may find a problem and fix it several times and discovering it is an ongoing problem, want to fix things from there on, as doing the action will cause unwanted alterations in the text prior.

There is no question that select mark text will do the job. It is more work for those who know about it, having to mark start and going down the end, then doing the action. The newbies will assume it will respect wrap, up/down and start points and make a gigantic mess.

This feature will need to be one of your canned responses, I fear. (See manual,.....)

arspr · 01-26-2014, 09:28 AM

I personally don't have an issue with the current behaviour. I always understand the replace all as it currently works.

But as a possible enhancement a new button with "Replace all from here" (or something like that) could be implemented although I doubt about its coding effort/benefit ratio. It would work in a "non-greedy" way using direction and wrap options. (I mean with wrap on, both buttons would be the same).

Or another option could be that behaviour toggle over the "Replace All" button set through an additional editor preference.

kovidgoyal · 01-26-2014, 09:56 AM

To me, "Replace All" replacing all matches and not some of all, is the obvious and correct behavior. If I wanted to have a button that replaced some matches, I would call it "Replace some".

And changing it would just mean that lots of users like me would then be confused and I would have to deal them instead. Since, in either case there are going to be confused users, I prefer to have to proffer explanations I actually believe in.

DoctorOhh · 01-26-2014, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmikel

I think this perspective though is likely to cause you support questions forever.

The way users think of it is replace all from here on down to the end, and if wrap is checked, continue back around to the start point.

If Replace All did not replace all, that would be a support issue to be sure. In my apparent ignorance I thought the way Kovid described how this section works was the standard operating procedure for a Find / Replace feature.

theducks · 01-26-2014, 10:23 AM

It is the word 'All' coupled with the words 'Wrap' and 'Direction' that is causing contention/confusion

I am a solid in expecting: Replace to End (of set direction) behavior if wrap is OFF. (could some python hacker, come up with a patch, tweak to flip the button, label and behavior from All to To End)

I am in happy with the improved 'scope' setting choices.

As others have said: 'This is Kovids baby'.
I will have to retrain my work habits to make more use of 'Marked'

eschwartz · 01-26-2014, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

To me, "Replace All" replacing all matches and not some of all, is the obvious and correct behavior. If I wanted to have a button that replaced some matches, I would call it "Replace some".

And changing it would just mean that lots of users like me would then be confused and I would have to deal them instead. Since, in either case there are going to be confused users, I prefer to have to proffer explanations I actually believe in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoctorOhh

If Replace All did not replace all, that would be a support issue to be sure. In my apparent ignorance I thought the way Kovid described how this section works was the standard operating procedure for a Find / Replace feature.

Same here. I expect most users will see the word "all" and assume it really does mean "all".

Wrap and direction clearly refer to the OTHER option there, "replace one"!

Besides, if I click "replace all" it's because I have pinned down a specific match that really does need replacing everywhere -- partial bulk replacement is clearly what the "marked text" option is meant for.

I have never actually heard of a find/replace utility that does differently.

DrChiper · 01-26-2014, 12:48 PM

Therefore, most editors I know use 2 distinctive GUI interfaces: one for Find and one for Replace (with an implicit Find).
The current calibre edit book interface wants to serve both purposes at the same time, thereby contributing to the confusion.
On the other hand: you want to make it the user as simple as possible and avoid extra (mouse) clicks. But nonetheless, it is the GUI's responsibility to make it clear to the user that his intended use has some implications and side effects he/she should be aware of.

AnotherCat · 01-26-2014, 04:45 PM

Not doubting that some have found this a little confusing as they have said they have found it so, but for myself I assumed "All" meant All without exception and anything else in the setup preferences (wherever those may happen to be) were overridden. This was so with Sigil also, insofar as direction was concerned.

I think Kovid is correct in what he is saying in that if it were not to be "All" then it would have to be "Some" (which would likely add other confusion), especially as the Oxford English Dictionary states for ALL "The entire or unabated amount or quantity of; the whole extent, substance, or compass of; the whole." so everything without any exception.

However, it may be that into other languages the regular translation of "All" is to a word that does not have that same strict without exceptions sense and that may be contributing to the confusion. I am no linguist but I think "toute" in French, for example, can have the usages of "many", "any", etc. as well as "all".

Terisa de morgan · 01-26-2014, 05:43 PM

The real point is not the meaning of all, but the definition of the zone where you want to replace. If you use vi, you can say %s, or .,$s. It will replace all... in all the file or from that point, for example.

Anyway, it's a design you have to take into account when you use this feature.

AnotherCat · 01-26-2014, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

The real point is not the meaning of all...

In which case "all" can be removed from the "Replace all" button, and then we can guess as to which of the two "Replace" buttons that would then exist did what, or would one become redundant

.

01-26-2014, 12:48 PM	#22
DrChiper Bookish Posts: 1,017 Karma: 2003162 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: PC, t1, t2, t3, Clara BW, Clara HD, Libra 2, Libra Color, Nxtpaper 11	Therefore, most editors I know use 2 distinctive GUI interfaces: one for Find and one for Replace (with an implicit Find). The current calibre edit book interface wants to serve both purposes at the same time, thereby contributing to the confusion. On the other hand: you want to make it the user as simple as possible and avoid extra (mouse) clicks. But nonetheless, it is the GUI's responsibility to make it clear to the user that his intended use has some implications and side effects he/she should be aware of. Attached Thumbnails

01-26-2014, 04:45 PM	#23
AnotherCat .... Posts: 1,547 Karma: 18068960 Join Date: May 2012 Device: ....	Not doubting that some have found this a little confusing as they have said they have found it so, but for myself I assumed "All" meant All without exception and anything else in the setup preferences (wherever those may happen to be) were overridden. This was so with Sigil also, insofar as direction was concerned. I think Kovid is correct in what he is saying in that if it were not to be "All" then it would have to be "Some" (which would likely add other confusion), especially as the Oxford English Dictionary states for ALL "The entire or unabated amount or quantity of; the whole extent, substance, or compass of; the whole." so everything without any exception. However, it may be that into other languages the regular translation of "All" is to a word that does not have that same strict without exceptions sense and that may be contributing to the confusion. I am no linguist but I think "toute" in French, for example, can have the usages of "many", "any", etc. as well as "all". Last edited by AnotherCat; 01-26-2014 at 04:54 PM. Reason: spelling

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01-26-2014, 08:56 AM	#16
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	As you are the developer, and a very able one, we must respect your decision. I think this perspective though is likely to cause you support questions forever. The way users think of it is replace all from here on down to the end, and if wrap is checked, continue back around to the start point. A typical user may find a problem and fix it several times and discovering it is an ongoing problem, want to fix things from there on, as doing the action will cause unwanted alterations in the text prior. There is no question that select mark text will do the job. It is more work for those who know about it, having to mark start and going down the end, then doing the action. The newbies will assume it will respect wrap, up/down and start points and make a gigantic mess. This feature will need to be one of your canned responses, I fear. (See manual,.....)

01-26-2014, 09:28 AM	#17
arspr Dead account. Bye Posts: 587 Karma: 668244 Join Date: Mar 2011 Device: none	I personally don't have an issue with the current behaviour. I always understand the replace all as it currently works. But as a possible enhancement a new button with "Replace all from here" (or something like that) could be implemented although I doubt about its coding effort/benefit ratio. It would work in a "non-greedy" way using direction and wrap options. (I mean with wrap on, both buttons would be the same). Or another option could be that behaviour toggle over the "Replace All" button set through an additional editor preference.

01-26-2014, 09:56 AM	#18
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,364 Karma: 27230406 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	To me, "Replace All" replacing all matches and not some of all, is the obvious and correct behavior. If I wanted to have a button that replaced some matches, I would call it "Replace some". And changing it would just mean that lots of users like me would then be confused and I would have to deal them instead. Since, in either case there are going to be confused users, I prefer to have to proffer explanations I actually believe in.

01-26-2014, 10:23 AM	#20
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 31,067 Karma: 60358908 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	It is the word 'All' coupled with the words 'Wrap' and 'Direction' that is causing contention/confusion I am a solid in expecting: Replace to End (of set direction) behavior if wrap is OFF. (could some python hacker, come up with a patch, tweak to flip the button, label and behavior from All to To End) I am in happy with the improved 'scope' setting choices. As others have said: 'This is Kovids baby'. I will have to retrain my work habits to make more use of 'Marked'

01-26-2014, 05:43 PM	#24
Terisa de morgan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,635 Karma: 12595249 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: Kobo Clara/Aura One/Forma,XiaoMI 5, iPad, Huawei MediaPad, YotaPhone 2	The real point is not the meaning of all, but the definition of the zone where you want to replace. If you use vi, you can say %s, or .,$s. It will replace all... in all the file or from that point, for example. Anyway, it's a design you have to take into account when you use this feature.

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