Sigil bugs

[odedta]

Now that HTML5 and CSS3 are working on ePub3, couldn't you use responsive design? use media queries depending on screen size? wouldn't that solve the problem you're talking about?

[mrmikel]

The point is that it requires an entirely different document, almost. For a small device, what do you do with the pull quote, or inset? When I shrunk an ocr'ed document down a few months, I stuck these at the end with a link to them, rather than leaving them in place because they would overwhelm the page.

I am not a graphics designer, but it seems like all of gyrations necessary to do this would be much more time consuming than laying it out twice. I am doing my books for my own amusement for my obsolete, but still very useful device of which there are millions and which can never be updated to epub3 because they simply lack cpu power.

[odedta]

I did not really understand what you were talking about there with the pull quote. I understand there are issues with big pictures etc on certain devices as you mentioned, that being said, I personally don't like all those devices with its quirks. I think that the market for eBooks is in Android/Apple/Microsoft tablets, laptops and AIO screens in libraries etc, all of which have or will have great software for reading ePub3 publications.

I am currently reading a book called "Tuesdays with Morrie", a very good book by the way, on my Xperia Arc S. It is in PDF format and I just scrolll it down as I go, I really don't see myself using eBooks latest features introduced in ePub3 on such a small screen, it's just not the experience i'm hoping for in such a small screen.

If we start with the assumption I wrote above, then responsive design is important as your screen size can vary from 7" to infinity (:P)



^_^

[theducks]

[rant]
I find the whole e-book standards industry: weird

We have a 'EPUB Standard' that no one is required to meet, even a set of minimums and be able to claim EPUB compatible

We have a lack of standards that address the issues presented by typical devices being used at the time the standards were released:

EPUB 2 /OPS:
Screen geometry (incl. orientation),
Screen size,
Screen color capability

Metadata Standards that still don't support the concept of 'Series'

Hardware Standards MUST be met before they can use the words and Logo: 'Meets xyz' (USB, HDMI, DVD, IEEE-488...)

Add to this mess, Publishers that reject an otherwise valid books because the contain some optional element is also ridiculous.
Making the designers jump through house specific quirks is expensive. They forget: 'They profit from sales of the book'

[/rant]

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by theducks

[rant]
I find the whole e-book standards industry: weird

We have a 'EPUB Standard' that no one is required to meet, even a set of minimums and be able to claim EPUB compatible

We have a lack of standards that address the issues presented by typical devices being used at the time the standards were released:

EPUB 2 /OPS:
Screen geometry (incl. orientation),
Screen size,
Screen color capability

Metadata Standards that still don't support the concept of 'Series'

Hardware Standards MUST be met before they can use the words and Logo: 'Meets xyz' (USB, HDMI, DVD, IEEE-488...)

Add to this mess, Publishers that reject an otherwise valid books because the contain some optional element is also ridiculous.
Making the designers jump through house specific quirks is expensive. They forget: 'They profit from sales of the book'

[/rant]

I think I can speak to much of this better than most, as the vast bulk of people here are able to design/make ePUBs for their own use, whereas I have to make them work across pretty much everything, and have to also make the client happy. That's a balancing act that lacks in fun, as we say.

@odedta:

Using media-queries doesn't solve everything. Firstly, not every device obeys that particular CSS. Some of the Kindles don't, and if you ignore that market...well. That's just crazy talk, if we're talking about money. Secondly, even assuming arguendo that you use media-queries, you still have to deal with those things that just aren't going to shrink well, like the aforementioned sidebars, pullquotes, etc. Those have to be reformatted, for readability.

As far as using PDF...sure, again, if someone has a TABLET. But most people don't read on tablets; they don't. There are still millions--MILLIONS--of Kindles out there that aren't KF8-enabled; Kindles, Kindle2's, some early Kindle3's and the DX's. Nor can those millions of people can't see sidebars, no matter what your media-queries do. The average e-reading device has a whopping 16 square inches of reading space, that's it. An iPad tablet has over 80 square inches. There's simply no comparing the two. But people who want just READERS, aren't going to buy tablets. I find the ipad far too heavy for serious reading. Browsing, play a game..sure. Skim my RSS reader, sure. But real "reading?" No. I'll switch off to one of my other readers instead.

@theducks:

Well, don't assume that all ePUB3 elements are optional and are being rejected for that reason. Much of what gets slapped into ePUB3 is using footnoting or other navigation features, and if that doesn't function, the readers won't be happy. A lot of what happens in ePUB3 is functional, not "optional" for prettification, say, footnotes that pop-up, and when ePUB3 isn't there, the footnotes themselves don't WORK. That's not the same as something optional.

Just my $.02. I wouldn't rush to ePUB3 for love nor even money (which you all know I adore). ePUB3 is asking for trouble, because the only device that's even close to having it is Apple (some, not all) and none of the other device-based readers have gone that way AT ALL. Only some (what, 2?) of the browser-based readers have started to incorporate HTML5 and CSS3 and js. So...I don't see that happening in any big rush. I'd be surprised if ePUB3 were the standard for physical devices before 2015, if not later.

And MORE importantly, just as millions of people still have 5 and 6-year old Kindle2's, millions of people are not going to just throw away their Nooks, Nookcolors, Sony's, Kobos, etc. They won't. So...to get everybody, stick with ePUB2 unless you have NO choice.

Hitch

[theducks]

I was ranting about EPUB2 optional items being rejected because they were PRESENT, where the spec says they should/can be ignored if not supported by a render engine.