What do you think of translated names in books?

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Geralt

They do this nonsense (and it is nonsense) in my language as well => from English. Idiotic.
<snip>

I actually like the suggestion of just transcribing names phonetically, but I think it wouldn't work for all names and all languages.

In Dutch, it works perfectly with names such as Brandybuck -> Brandebok, because the original name actually sounds like a Dutch name pronounced in English. If my last name had been "Brandebok", an Englishman would actually pronounce it as "Brandybuck".

Many "real" names in LotR can be just pronounced as if they are Dutch, such as "Elrond", "Gandalf", "Sam", and they wouldn't sound strange. The same is true for many, if not most Shannara names.

It doesn't work nearly as well with a name such as Strider. It would be written as "Straider", but it would still sound English-like, even when pronounced with Dutch intonation. "Ranger" would also be impossible to transcribe ("Reindzjer") without making it sound exceedingly foolish. The word "Reindzjer" doesn't mean anything.

I think that this is the reason why some names are translated, and others are not. Still, I think that "Ranger" (as in, a profession, a woodsman/tracker) should have been translated to the Dutch equivalent of "Woudloper".

Translating it to "Doler" feels wrong, because the Dutch word "Doler" denotes someone who drifts from place to place, because they have nothing else left, and without having a purpose. Aragorn is a drifter, but not because he has nothing left in the world and not because he doesn't have a purpose. Far from it, actually.

Translating some names just makes them look stupid to me, like translating "Whisper", "Rumor", or "Walker" into Dutch, literally. No animal or man would be called "Fluister", "Gerucht" or "Loper" in Dutch. Once we had a dog called "Shadow". No-one would ever think about giving a dog the Dutch equivalent "Schaduw" as a name.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I actually like the suggestion of just transcribing names phonetically, but I think it wouldn't work for all names and all languages

Transcribing is the way to go IMO. Translating first names or names of places is idiotic. If you were to translate any name of any place in Japan you would get fantasy names that have nothing to do with Japan.
For example 青森県 means Blue Forest Prefecture, but it's Aomori Ken isn't it? You can say Blue Forest, but nobody will understand what the hell you're on about.
Now if this is valid for real places, why shouldn't it be for fictional ones?


Elrond = Elrond
Gandalf = Gandalf
Sam = Sem
Strider = Strajder
Ranger = Rendžer

That is transcription in bosnian/croatian/serbian of LoTR names. Now doesn't that look better then translating like this:

Strider = there is no word in my language for that. To stride would be koračati. So if I forced language to comply I would have to translate with Koračar which sound so silly and dumb.
And Ranger as is in profession is Šumar. That is not relevant or truthful to the original.


My point is translation can make things worse and warp the original meaning. Phonetic transcriptions are just that. They don't add meaning, just makes original easier to pronounce and they adapt it to the rules of the language it is being transcribed into.

Hell, Japanese have made an art out of this. Katakana is used almost exclusively for that purpose. Making things easier to pronounce and not adding meaning.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Geralt

Hell, Japanese have made an art out of this. Katakana is used almost exclusively for that purpose. Making things easier to pronounce and not adding meaning.

Indeed, but I wonder if Japanese would translate English fantasy novel names, or if they would transcribe them as pronounced, using Katakana.

My understanding of Japanese is good enough, as long as I'm not required to talk with someone older than 3 or 4 years old or thereabout, but I think it wouldn't be sufficient to go check out LotR in Japanese

[speakingtohe]

Generally I prefer the names as is. Reminds me that this a book set in a different country which isn't always obvious.

Some books have names, maybe only one or two which are a subtle or non subtle description or jibe at the character. Dudley Doright springs to mind

The trick in these cases would be to get an equivalent translation that wasn't unwieldy, meant the same as the author intended and sound like a name not a description. (for example Frodo - wise and Gandalf - wand elf. I would not be thinking the translation was a name.)

Helen

[patrickt]

I have trouble keeping track of characters when I can't pronounce their names and hear them in my mind. It's mostly a problem with Scandinavian names.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I have trouble keeping track of characters when I can't pronounce their names and hear them in my mind. It's mostly a problem with Scandinavian names.

I was close to 40 before I found out epitome doesn't rhyme with Rome. I find some English names hard to pronounce (correctly) and that is my native tongue.

Helen

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I was close to 40 before I found out epitome doesn't rhyme with Rome.

Wait. WHAT? IT DOESN'T?

Oh noes... *search, search*

ɪˈpɪtəmi,ɛ-

I-pituhmi

So it's prounounced in the same vein as epiphany? Got to make sure...

ɪˈpɪf(ə)ni,ɛ-

I-pif(uh)ni

Drat.

I've had this wronglified* for 20 years. I'm going to hide in a deep hole now.

(*Yeah, and that's not a word either. It's my very own shorthand for "having been wrong about something for a long time", so I don't have to type that sentence too often )

[theducks]

Leave them
but provide a pronunciation guide
and maybe a note of explanation when the name has other meaning

Boris Badenov

Is there a Squirrel around here?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by theducks

Leave them
but provide a pronunciation guide
and maybe a note of explanation when the name has other meaning

Boris Badenov

Is there a Squirrel around here?

Another one I never got until this minute and I loved that show

My brain still keeps telling me that Penelope rhymes with antelope although if I had heard Penelope pronounced first it could have been the other way around. Just goes to show that reading at an early age can cause brain damage.

Helen

[hansl]

Even as a 13 years old, when my English was still void, I wondered about the strange names in the German (Margaret Carroux) version of Lord of the Rings. The worst of them being Beutlin for Baggins, Beutelsend for Bag End and Auenland for The Shire.
Hobbingen for Hobbiton and Streicher for Strider.

"Streicher" more commonly in German means "string player". The meaning of "Beutelsend" being the end of a bag I didn't even notice as I read Beutel-send and thought of a postal office sending bags around.

"The Shire" is a problem as the German "Grafschaft" is not appropriate because there is no earl (Graf) in The Shire. So Auenland seems to be ok regarding its meaning as description of a land of meadows and winding rivers with trees growing at the river banks but is that an appropriate translation? Maybe.

I opt for not translating names but to explain their meaning in a glossary. If there is another alphabet I'd use a phonetic transcription if no literal transcription is possible and explain the original in a glossary.

And also titles like "Master". "Herr Frodo" is an uncommon usage in German. If you talk to your master, you just call him "Herr" without a first name. But this is more like "Sir". A "Meister" is a craftsperson title in German, "Master" is an academic degree (in Worldish). So leave "Master" and add it to the glossary, making clear that it does not have an academic meaning here.

The same for poems. You need to translate them but don't torture your readers with rhymes in the translation. Add the original plus cultural background to an annex. This way they don't need to rhyme in the wrong language. Tom Bombadil in German. Würg.

This all makes translated books a little more expensive but the extra information and the better use of the translation language would be well worth it. Many names and idioms simply cannot be translated without changing the reader's perception. Well, Auenland seems to be really good, the longer I muse about it

hansl

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I was close to 40 before I found out epitome doesn't rhyme with Rome. I find some English names hard to pronounce (correctly) and that is my native tongue.

Helen

English speakers aren't used to pronouncing Greek words. Another troublesome one is "octopodes" (the grammatically correct, although almost never used except by liguistic pedants like me, plural of "octopus") which is pronounced in the same way as "antipodes" - ie oc-top-odd-eze. I suspect that you wouldn't get very far if you went into a fishmonger's shop and said "I'd like two octopodes, please" .

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by hansl

The meaning of "Beutelsend" being the end of a bag I didn't even notice as I read Beutel-send and thought of a postal office sending bags around.

"Bag End" is a linguistic joke by Tolkien. The British English term for a dead-end street is the entirely made-up French phrase "cul-de-sac", which means "the bottom of a sack". "Bag End" is Tolkien's literal translation of "cul-de-sac".

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

English speakers aren't used to pronouncing Greek words. Another troublesome one is "octopodes" (the grammatically correct, although almost never used except by liguistic pedants like me, plural of "octopus") which is pronounced in the same way as "antipodes" - ie oc-top-odd-eze. I suspect that you wouldn't get very far if you went into a fishmonger's shop and said "I'd like two octopodes, please" .

And here I thought octopussies was the plural of octopus Actually I would have guessed octopi and likely have been greeted with a blank stare at the fishmongers as well. Not that we call them fishmongers in Canada. "Give me a couple of them there octopus" would be better understood.

I am always in awe of the seemingly endless (to me) variations in the English language in common usage in England despite the homogenizing influence of American TV. Individualization at a high level.

Helen

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by hansl

Even as a 13 years old, when my English was still void, I wondered about the strange names in the German (Margaret Carroux) version of Lord of the Rings. The worst of them being Beutlin for Baggins, Beutelsend for Bag End and Auenland for The Shire.
Hobbingen for Hobbiton and Streicher for Strider.
......

hansl

That's how opinions differ. It's been almost thirty years since I read that translation and even after reading the English version repeatedly I still find the translation very well made. Any translation of a work of fiction is a balancing act between staying close to the original and creating a literary work in its own right. If those clearly English words and names had not been translated they would have had a jarring effect on the whole atmosphere of the book.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

And here I thought octopussies was the plural of octopus Actually I would have guessed octopi and likely have been greeted with a blank stare at the fishmongers as well.

That's the problem: the pseudo-intellectuals assume it's a Latin word and try to sound clever by saying "octopi". Unfortunately for them, it's not Latin but Greek

I was interested to learn in a previous thread on this topic that American dictionaries allow "octopi" as a legitimate plural, whether, for example, my Chambers (British) English dictionary says:

pl ocˈtopuses, octōˈpodēs (or /-topˈ/); ocˈtopī is wrong.