Waiting/wishlist for the 3rd Generation

[MarkRPenn]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

With an emulator, there is a chance that refresh issues can be addressed in mainstrean builds of common applications.

But is that what we really want? I don't know of one Windows app with a UI that works on the (touch screen) Pocket PC, and people have tried, and the iLiad is even more "not a desktop" than the Pocket PC is. The iLiad doesn't have the same (or even similar) uses as a desktop, so I don't think we want ports. I think we want apps specifically designed for the platform that'll look nothing like they do on the desktop.

In fact I doubt many will even exist on the desktop. To me a hand-written notes taking app makes no sense at all on a desktop, and an eBook reader (as opposed to an eBook manager) only makes slightly more. Likewise a conventional web browser makes little sense on the iLiad until the display technologies converge and we can have the best of both worlds (LCD and e-paper).

I have to say I also don't want to be limited to what people develop for Linux. I want stuff developed for the iLiad, regardless of OS.

Mark

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by MarkRPenn

But, the iLiad badly needs some serious development. It's a fantastic piece of hardware, badly let down by p!$$ poor software, at least on the note taking side of things.

I think iRex was really counting on a lot more Business partners stepping up with software modifications or additional applications than has happened. I think their original plan was to focus on the hardware side and come up with a basic software/application build, and then have a third party Business partner come and fill in all of the gaps for their specific market. They list a bunch of partners on their website, but the only one I've really heard much about is the eFlyBook. Even that one seems to have tailed off quite a bit. ARINC got out of the business and handed it all over to MyAirplane.com, and I haven't heard much from them since (admittedly I'm not a pilot, so maybe I just haven't been following the right news).

I would bet that iRex's original plan never really had them selling the device directly to eBook customers. That could explain a lot about why the current software doesn't take full advantage of the device's potential. The big question is, what can we do about it? The hobbyist programmers can only do so much unless they get a much larger community of people working on it.

[majutsu]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Just FYI: all currently available E-Ink readers run Linux.

Thanks, didn't know that. I just came back from a journey into the GPS world where there are basically 3 major manufacturers (Magellan, TomTom, Garmin) and they all seem to make Windows Mobile devices and it didn't seem to be different with the smaller ones -- so that was depressing (moreso because the software seemed sucky, more 1994 than 2008 in many ways).

Originally Posted by Kingston

Can you post the link to the $45 8GB flash card?

Eh, when I looked up Pricewatch a few days ago, Newegg had a good quality one for $39.99 but it seems it's sold out or something. There are others for a smiliar price, but I can't vouch for the stores:
http://www.pricewatch.com/flash_card_memory/cf_8gb.htm

I heard what the others are talking about, I have long dreamed of a paperless life (or at least a paper-less life).

[axel77]

Originally Posted by MarkRPenn

Unfortunately, despite being it's USP, note taking on the iLiad is a second class citizen

I absolutely agree about the Unique Selling Point thing. Coming from the scientifc edge, I see also a lot of other iliad users on the forum using the iLiad academic tasks. *Working* with texts is esential and quite different to reading for enjoying, the scribble feature on PDFs is a must, but yet also agree the software is second class when it comes to making notes to text. (Additionally the pointing gap is really the thing most people I borrow the device a few minutes quickly get frustrated with.)

About the application porting stuff, I think its important not to realize the iliad as small computer with a nice screen, but as an "active paper". Appllications will have to give you the feeling you still work with paper... only its a bit more "intelligent" here and there than real paper can offer you.

As negative example see this calendar application port, I know there is a calendar pdf available, however the wish would be having a "smart" paper calendar, some kind of hybrid. And I believe Adam B. when says the unavailability of the "iliad scribble interface" to 3rd party applications is a real show stopper here.

[godidog]

Originally Posted by majutsu

Thanks, didn't know that. I just came back from a journey into the GPS world where there are basically 3 major manufacturers (Magellan, TomTom, Garmin) and they all seem to make Windows Mobile devices and it didn't seem to be different with the smaller ones -- so that was depressing

TomTom only make Linux OS navigation devices. ( They make a version of the software that can run on Pocket PC, Palm OS and Symbian, but the hardware you buy from TomTom is Linux only sicen the original TomTom GO ). They comply with the GPL, too.

For someone looking for Linux devices, you don't appear to be looking very carefully.

(moreso because the software seemed sucky, more 1994 than 2008 in many ways).

I think it would be hard to improve on the TomTom UI, and other navigation device manufacturers seem to think so, if their shameless imitation is anything to go by...
If you can do better, a fortune awaits...

[majutsu]

Originally Posted by godidog

For someone looking for Linux devices, you don't appear to be looking very carefully.

LOL, I should learn NOT to post when I'm very tired. I should have put the third company as Medion -- not TomTom. Medion GPS units are more popular in Europe when Aldi (a discount chain) has their intermittent sales. They run on a Windows OS.

Yes, TomTom is on Linux. Actually, it's an almost perfect system --- but it runs Tele Atlas instead of what the other companies run on -- Navteq. (Google and many online services use Navteq as well).

I really had problems in the section of America I'm in with Tele Atlas data.... while Navteq based systems tend to be smoother (but not perfect either).

I tried many different systems from friends out and have a Medion for Europe... but personally I hate the software and it's not simple enough for my wife to use because the software requires constant reinstallations and things of that nature after an extended period.

Seriously, if TomTom switched to Navteq tomorrow, I'd be the first in line. Or if another manufacturer switched to Linux. But since TomTom purchased Tele Atlas last year, I doubt that will happen...

This page sort of talks about those problems.... (but if only that was the extent of the problems I've seen I'd buy one anyway):
http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2007/06/t...iew.php?page=9

Maybe the new 2007 maps have fixed my specific problem -- should check it out.

I think it would be hard to improve on the TomTom UI, and other navigation device manufacturers seem to think so, if their shameless imitation is anything to go by...
If you can do better, a fortune awaits...

I agree. But manufacturers like Garmin have serious problems. If you want to simulate a route on any unit near my price range (don't know about their latest highest priced units but heard it's the same story) you are forced at 1x speed -- that's ridiculous! No one is going to sit through that and the only journeys worth simulating are the long ones....

And that type of thing. While everybody is adding worthless bells/whistles like jpeg viewers/mp3 players to their units that almost nobody purchases the units for -- I wish they just focused on their task and improved the deficient areas.

[talaivan]

I think the Iliad should work well for the things it's suited for. It is, basically, a substitute for paper, and it's the best device available for that (which isn't saying that much). The Sony and Kindle are too small and have other problems. It doesn't make sense to me to use the device as a PIM or GPS system -- though others may disagree. It DOES make a lot of sense to improve the notes, the pdf-reader, the accuracy and size of the pen (it's too little and often writes a millimeter or two below where it contacts the screen), to make the device MUCH faster, to improve the ereader apps (include FBReader, allow MobiReader more options, such as not having all the junk at the bottom of the screen and having more font sizes). The computer programs could also use some work -- and how about a Mac version? And, of course, the ridiculous dongle that you use to charge it and connect it to a computer needs to be changed. In any event, I don't see the device as a computer, even on the level of a Palm. But as a reader, note-taker, and the like, it could be vastly improved. It has a lot of potential.

[MarkRPenn]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I think iRex was really counting on a lot more Business partners stepping up with software modifications or additional applications than has happened. I think their original plan was to focus on the hardware side and come up with a basic software/application build, and then have a third party Business partner come and fill in all of the gaps for their specific market. They list a bunch of partners on their website, but the only one I've really heard much about is the eFlyBook. Even that one seems to have tailed off quite a bit. ARINC got out of the business and handed it all over to MyAirplane.com, and I haven't heard much from them since (admittedly I'm not a pilot, so maybe I just haven't been following the right news).

I would bet that iRex's original plan never really had them selling the device directly to eBook customers. That could explain a lot about why the current software doesn't take full advantage of the device's potential. The big question is, what can we do about it? The hobbyist programmers can only do so much unless they get a much larger community of people working on it.

I reckon you're probably right. Thing is, I'm not convinced application specific software is necessary, so if they were waiting for someone to develop the perfect pilot's apps for example, they've missed a trick. Application specific content is another thing entirely of course, but the software doesn't have to wait for that.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but in most cases a really good notes app will suit a doctor and an engineer and a scientist just as well as it'll suit a pilot. Same applies to scribbling on documents, reading, indexing and getting content. In other words if the iRex did all those things really well, it'd satisfy 90% of users, whereas now.........??????

I'm sadly very pessimistic about the future for iRex. I think they're destined to go the way of the Sony SmartPad - neat attempt at "intelligent paper", with massive potential, but let down by poor software and so never likely to be adopted mainstream.

And the sad thing is that the iLiad could have been the device to take e-books to a wider audience as well, as (until the Kindle??) it was the only one with any added value to justify the large price tag. Think about it - who can justify spending £450 on a book reader? No-one can really, but as a full paper replacement it becomes a much more sensible purchase.

Mark

[zerospinboson]

actually, don't write the iLiad off just yet.. in Holland a pilot program (serious) has recently started where our 2 best (if not the most-read, that's our counterpart to the Telegraph, obviously, also called de Telegraaf) newspapers offering a (more or less) €150-300 subsidy (depending on whether or not you want to factor in the subscription's cost) on the iLiad, making it cost €500, (so €350 with a 1 year mandatory subscription included) for existing customers.. with a decent advertising slogan to boot.
so before you declare it dead, pray it'll catch on

edit: new customers pay €100 less for the epaper 'edition' than when they would buy the 2 separately.

[MarkRPenn]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

actually, don't write the iLiad off just yet.. in Holland a pilot program (serious) has recently started where our 2 best (if not the most-read, that's our counterpart to the Telegraph, obviously, also called de Telegraaf) newspapers offering a (more or less) €150-300 subsidy (depending on whether or not you want to factor in the subscription's cost) on the iLiad, making it cost €500, (so €350 with a 1 year mandatory subscription included) for existing customers.. with a decent advertising slogan to boot.
so before you declare it dead, pray it'll catch on

edit: new customers pay €100 less for the epaper 'edition' than when they would buy the 2 separately.

Great, but the minute the Kindle hits Europe, that'll kill any head start the iLiad has.

I desperately want more and more content, especially newspapers, but this is my point; the success of the iLiad depends on iRex taking advantage of it's USP - the fact that you can write on it. They CANNOT fight off Amazon simply by making a couple of newspapers available. They mustn't ignore content; they have to keep up, but they should play to their strengths. Faced with the Kindle, content delivery will never be one of iRex' USP's, and they won't succeed based on that alone.

Mark

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by MarkRPenn

Great, but the minute the Kindle hits Europe, that'll kill any head start the iLiad has.

I desperately want more and more content, especially newspapers, but this is my point; the success of the iLiad depends on iRex taking advantage of it's USP - the fact that you can write on it. They CANNOT fight off Amazon simply by making a couple of newspapers available. They mustn't ignore content; they have to keep up, but they should play to their strengths. Faced with the Kindle, content delivery will never be one of iRex' USP's, and they won't succeed based on that alone.

Mark

sure, but as noted multiple times already (as well as just observable in academia): writing and annotating is something that only very few people apart from scholars (and to a lesser extent students) do.

that said, amazon doesn't have a dutch branch (yet) (i'm not sure why, probably because book prices are fixed here to "support" new "talent", and as such are nonnegotiable (the prices are fixed by law, depending on # of pages and the kind of cover)), so the iLiad still has some time to catch on.. the bad (compared to kindle) battery life of the iLiad annoys me, though.

[daudi]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

sure, but as noted multiple times already (as well as just observable in academia): writing and annotating is something that only very few people apart from scholars (and to a lesser extent students) do.
.

I don't know much about the size of the market that something like the iliad needs to be successful, but the student market could potentially be quite useful. I have recently found out that the library at the University where I work is testing the iliad expecting that they could quite quickly have a large demand for material made available via the iliad. And there's a steady somewhat predictable flow through of students and therefore new students who could need an iliad.

[axel77]

Originally Posted by daudi

I don't know much about the size of the market that something like the iliad needs to be successful, but the student market could potentially be quite useful. I have recently found out that the library at the University where I work is testing the iliad expecting that they could quite quickly have a large demand for material made available via the iliad. And there's a steady somewhat predictable flow through of students and therefore new students who could need an iliad.

I agree, everbody at the university I show the iliad is immediately interested in it, often it are some missing features because the technology is not there yet (page turn speed, and text highlighting the most complained missed features) and decide not yet to buy one for themselves. Buts its quite a market not to be underestimated. Look how many successful companies only live by creating scientific instruments And if 50% of students worldwide would buy an iliad, Irex could make their building out of gold

[MarkRPenn]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

sure, but as noted multiple times already (as well as just observable in academia): writing and annotating is something that only very few people apart from scholars (and to a lesser extent students) do.

You are joking, right?

Firstly, we are not just talking about margin notes in textbooks here - we're taliking about general note taking - using the iLiad as a notebook. Virtually every occupation uses notebooks!

Secondly, even if we were talking about just annotation, it's far from limited to academia. I don't know a single engineer who doesn't write all over his installation and maintenance manuals, or drawings, or even sales literature. Same applies to just about any profession that uses reading material. If they don't do it now, it's only because they'd be destroying a valuable paper copy (I'm often asked not to draw on an engineering drawing as it's "our only copy"), which is an obstacle removed by the iLiad.

Add to that anyone who ever has to fill in a report of any kind (think service engineers), and you can see that the "the market is limited to academia" argument makes no sense at all.

Mark

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by daudi

I don't know much about the size of the market that something like the iliad needs to be successful, but the student market could potentially be quite useful. I have recently found out that the library at the University where I work is testing the iliad expecting that they could quite quickly have a large demand for material made available via the iliad. And there's a steady somewhat predictable flow through of students and therefore new students who could need an iliad.

oh, i agree completely (that's the reason i like the thing so much myself).. but the cost atm is still fairly prohibitive.. maybe if universities (especially the faculties that require you to read lots) could try to make available more e-book versions of whatever books they want students to read, this would really provide an incentive for students to get one compared to getting a paper copy, or reading the library version.. the only way you can get (serious) books now is if someone is kind enough to either OCR them (the scanned PDFs are nice, but 20-100mb per book with no text recognition is pretty useless)..
i can sometimes get pdf versions of books from some of my teachers, or from certain websites that shall not be mentioned, but non-fiction content availability is still pretty spotty, and the reading quality is generally rather poor.

Originally Posted by MarkRPenn

You are joking, right?

Firstly, we are not just talking about margin notes in textbooks here - we're taliking about general note taking - using the iLiad as a notebook. Virtually every occupation uses notebooks!

Secondly, even if we were talking about just annotation, it's far from limited to academia. I don't know a single engineer who doesn't write all over his installation and maintenance manuals, or drawings, or even sales literature. Same applies to just about any profession that uses reading material. If they don't do it now, it's only because they'd be destroying a valuable paper copy (I'm often asked not to draw on an engineering drawing as it's "our only copy"), which is an obstacle removed by the iLiad.

Add to that anyone who ever has to fill in a report of any kind (think service engineers), and you can see that the "the market is limited to academia" argument makes no sense at all.

Mark

interesting.. although both your assumptions seem to presuppose either fairly affluent people being interested (engineers), or companies realizing the potential (and buying it for their employees), which would depend on their seeing that there are obvious advantages to using the iLiad compared to 'normal' paper for notating..
I hadn't yet thought of taking something like lecture notes on this thing yet, but i suppose it would work very well (and better the more people start using it, as sharing the notes would quickly become easier)..
However, the thing isn't being marketed (here) like that at all (yet?), probably because of the price.. which is a real shame.