George R.R. Martin or Steven Erikson? - Page 2

Istvan diVega · 07-18-2013, 10:08 AM

Start Malazan Book of the Fallen. I can easily see Martin doing a Jordan before finishing his series, considering he's no spring chicken and seems determined to do absolutely everything ASoIaF-related except actually sitting down to write the remaining books. Also, though I like both series I think Erikson's is easily the better.

As far as Gardens of the Moon goes, I enjoyed it a lot. It's not as good as the following books, Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice, but that's only because those are both exceptional. All in all I'd say that Malazan Book of the Fallen quite possibly is the best fantasy series I've read in the last 35 years.

bill_mchale · 07-18-2013, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm not a huge fan of the dragger-outter story-telling school of franchise fantasy forever-ishness. I prefer a slightly higher Endings to Book-count Ratio (EBR) in my fantasy reading.

Yes! I don't mind lots of books that share a setting or characters, but when I consider how long many fantasy books are, it seem ridiculous that it might take 5 - 10 novels to tell a single story.

--
Bill

dickloraine · 07-18-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Yes! I don't mind lots of books that share a setting or characters, but when I consider how long many fantasy books are, it seem ridiculous that it might take 5 - 10 novels to tell a single story.
Bill

To be fair, especially for these two series, there is not just one single story. Martin has many PoV-characters and each has its own story. Of course there is a greater story arch, but each character has its own story, his own agenda and goals. But I agree, the great story arch is in focus.

Eriksons books are more loose connected. You could say, that there is one great story line (but even that is first mentioned in the 3rd book), but I think it is more about themes and thoughts and one time period in the history of Malaz, than just one great story. At least the first few Erikson books could be read as stand-alone novels. So even if you do not plan to read the whole series, I recommend to read Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice as stand-alone novels. You won't be dissapointed (or maybe you will, Erikson is special)

jgaiser · 07-18-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dickloraine

You won't be dissapointed (or maybe you will, Erikson is special)

In the edition I have, Erikson himself says:

Quote:

In the years and many novels since, certain facts have made themselves plain. Beginning with Gardens of the Moon, readers will either hate my stuff or love it. There's no in-between. Naturally, I'd rather everybody loved it, but I understand why this will never be the case. These are not lazy books. You can't float through, you just can't. Even more problematic, the first novel begins halfway through a seeming marathon – you either hit the ground running and stay on your feet or you're toast

I've pretty much decided on Malazan. And I'm going to start with the first book. We'll see how it goes

aecardenas · 07-18-2013, 01:48 PM

To answer this, I'm going to post my Amazon/Goodreads review of Gardens of the Moon, as I tried to articulate what it is about the Malazan Book of the Fallen series that I found to be so compelling and powerful:

Gardens of the Moon is the first book in a ten book series called The Malazan Book of the Fallen. The series is arguably the most epic in scope, the most complex in narrative style, and the most detailed in terms of cultural, sociological and religious aspects. Comparisons to other great fantasy epics will no doubt include The Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire or even The Wheel of Time…but a better and more accurate comparison may be to Frank Herbert's magnificent sci-fi masterpiece, the Dune chronicles, and Glen Cook's gritty and character-centric fantasy series The Black Company (where he must have picked up the use of descriptive and decidedly off color] nicknames for the military personnel).

Gardens of the Moon starts off much like Dune and the Black Company, in that you are literally thrown into the middle of this fully realized world, replete with an ancient but still living prehistory (in the form of the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut), a powerful but aloof alien species (in the form of the Tiste Andii), and a host of elder gods who are anything but passive and who routinely interfere and direct the lives of the general populace.

I remember when i was a teenager and I had heard of a movie called Dune which was apparently based upon a best-selling novel. The premise intrigued me to the point where I read the book and then immediately saw the movie by David Lynch. I did not see the movie alone. I took my cousin with me. My female cousin who knew nothing of sci-fi or fantasy and who probably was looking for a movie like Gremlins or Ghostbusters, rather than a strange sci-fantasy like Dune. And the movie was incredibly strange. If i had not read the book…i don't think even I would have been able to pick up on all of the subtle nuances and grand scope of things without having read the book first. I can't imagine what it must have been like for my poor cousin, who was so confused and befuddled afterwards that all she could do was ask "What is the 'water of life'? and why did he keep saying 'the sleeper has awakened'?"

I recount this story only to illustrate a potential problem point: readers who are looking for the standard/typical mode of fantasy storytelling which have become so predictable that many times we're not looking for diversity in narrative, but rather looking at what type of new "power" is being contested or won. No, Gardens of the Moon will be as baffling and mysterious and potentially frustrating for many readers who are looking for something straightforward and simple to explain. Such is not the case with this series. Steven Erikson has created a complex and living breathing world and populated with various races and cultures and countries and thrown them into this story.

And what is the story? It's hard to say really. There are so many narrative plot points. But I think the fundamental story is something happened thousands of years before, something so terrible and cataclysmic that the repercussions of the action and decision have reverberated throughout history, affecting the elder races and have now culminated into a series of devastating and world-ending consequences that the modern races and their current use of magic must now contend with the here and now.

I having been reading this series for the past few years now, and am on the last few novels. These books are not easy to read, but they yield so much pleasure in terms of epic storytelling and the range of characters.

I will point out two things that you may need to know about the entire series:

First, Steven Erikson believes that all characters, big and small, matter. You might agree with that viewpoint, but if you think about what that really means, it means that each and every little character gets their share of the page, meaning what would normally be a 400 page book could turn into a 1,000 page book because the lives and dreams of each and every character is detailed and told. hence the massive length of most of Erikson's books.
Second, Steven Erikson's prose style is almost as complex and flowery as his story and settings. This prose is as purple as purple can get.

But with that said, these books are marvelous. And if you can get through the first book, as dense and complex as it is, then you will be rewarded by the 2nd and 3rd books, Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice, which are about as good as anything i've ever read. The book Deadhouse Gates will break your heart with its grueling story about Coltaine's Chain of Dogs. And Memories of Ice will astound you in its scope and power; it is perhaps Erikson's one Masterpiece, though some may argue that the entire series is what constitutes his masterwork. but if one were to give the word masterpiece to any one of his novels, it would probably have to be Memories of Ice.

But in order to get there, you have to go through Gardens of the Moon, which is not his best work, but the beginning of his greatest work.

GreenMonkey · 07-19-2013, 04:33 PM

I'm a big fan of Martin (pending he finishes Ice & Fire and it doesn't suck he's my second favorite author after Robin Hobb). Ice & Fire is awfully good to me. I re-read the whole series each time a new book comes out. I passed on it for years after my experience with the Wheel of Time (which I consider pretty terrible) but Ice & Fire is actually really good.

I read Gardens of the Moon and I'm not sure what I thought. I haven't bounced off a book that hard / had that much difficulty keeping things straight and dealing with difficult-to-read-prose since I read The Two Towers in 6th grade. Or maybe Gene Wolfe's Claw of the Conciliator I read a few year ago which I think still makes my head hurt.

I came out of it deciding I'd give it some time, and then re-read book 1 again before trying some more of the series.

Istvan diVega · 07-19-2013, 09:51 PM

If you really, really can't get to grips with Gardens of the Moon, then just kick it away and proceed straight to Deadhouse Gates. It's not an ideal solution and you'll be missing lots of stuff, but nothing that is absolutely crucial later on. If you find that Deadhouse Gates too is tough going, then you can safely write off the whole yarn as unsuitable for your tastes.

aecardenas · 07-19-2013, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Istvan diVega

If you really, really can't get to grips with Gardens of the Moon, then just kick it away and proceed straight to Deadhouse Gates. It's not an ideal solution and you'll be missing lots of stuff, but nothing that is absolutely crucial later on. If you find that Deadhouse Gates too is tough going, then you can safely write off the whole yarn as unsuitable for your tastes.

It's funny you say that, because Steven Erikson in interviews has sometimes admitted that Gardens of the Moon is a rather hard introduction. He has actually recommended on some occassions to just start with the 2nd book, Deadhouse Gates, which he feels is his first "complete novel". Gardens of the Moon was written many years before Deadhouse Gate (2nd book), and it was a book that perhaps is a little too dense, a little too immersive, whereas Deadhouse Gate is a tighter, more complete novel, in his estimation.

I'm not sure I personally could recommend skipping to the second book of a series, but I can see why Erikson would recommend that in some cases, because Deadhouse Gates has such focus and power. As I said in my review, Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice are powerhouse books. They kick literary ass. Gardens of the Moon is perhaps the weakest of the series, which is too bad, because I think it really takes off on the 2nd and 3rd books.

I don't know...maybe try reading Deadhouse Gates first...(though I'm silently cringing inside even suggestion such a thing)...and maybe it's as Erikson says...maybe the experience will be a much better one for you.

Also, if you want to get it another fantasy series...Glen Cook's Black Company has just now been released on Kindle in OMnibus formats, so that you can enjoy each trilogy in sequence. It's one of the best fantasies around, and actually provided much of the inspiration for Erikson's Malazan series, but it's nowhere near as dense and convoluted. It's written in a much plainer, succint, and vigorous prose, reminiscent of say a soldier writing a book about the Vietnam war from his perspective. Immersive and imaginative as hell, but a short, brutal narrative style.

drofgnal · 07-20-2013, 06:57 AM

I'd vote Erikson. I haven't read it yet, but I say that having soured on GRRM. Book 4 was horrible, and 5 wasn't a whole lot better. Like others here, I'm also concerned if he'll ever finish it. I read Martin has a contingency for the tv series to finish it. (He's told the producers how it should end), but said he doesn't want another writer finishing it should that be necessary. It sounds like he'd leave the readers hanging. He doesn't seem to be in a hurry to finish writing it, and heaven forbid he write anything during football season and miss his beloved Jets.

rkomar · 07-20-2013, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drofgnal

He doesn't seem to be in a hurry to finish writing it, and heaven forbid he write anything during football season and miss his beloved Jets.

As a Canadian who has watched some NFL, I can only say that if he wrote during the stoppages in play, he'd have finished the series a long time ago.

HarryT · 07-21-2013, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkomar

As a Canadian who has watched some NFL, I can only say that if he wrote during the stoppages in play, he'd have finished the series a long time ago.

He should start watching cricket. Lots of time to write during a 5-day test match.

Graham · 07-21-2013, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

He should start watching cricket. Lots of time to write during a 5-day test match.

Particularly if he had a ticket for Lord's tomorrow...

Graham

HarryT · 07-21-2013, 02:09 PM

True

.

jgaiser · 07-21-2013, 06:50 PM

Thanks for everybody's recommendations. I've decided to try Gardens of the Moon next. In fact I've jumped into the deep end and have read the Prologue and first chapter and I can see I'm in for a confusing ride.

aecardenas · 07-21-2013, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgaiser

In fact I've jumped into the deep end and have read the Prologue and first chapter and I can see I'm in for a confusing ride.

Don't fight the waves; ride them.

07-18-2013, 01:48 PM	#20
aecardenas Kafkaesque Posts: 104 Karma: 1149770 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: California Device: Kindle	To answer this, I'm going to post my Amazon/Goodreads review of Gardens of the Moon, as I tried to articulate what it is about the Malazan Book of the Fallen series that I found to be so compelling and powerful: *Gardens of the Moon* is the first book in a ten book series called The Malazan Book of the Fallen. The series is arguably the most epic in scope, the most complex in narrative style, and the most detailed in terms of cultural, sociological and religious aspects. Comparisons to other great fantasy epics will no doubt include *The Lord of the Rings* or A Song of Ice and Fire or even *The Wheel of Time…but a better and more accurate comparison may be to Frank Herbert's magnificent sci-fi masterpiece, the Dune* chronicles, and Glen Cook's gritty and character-centric fantasy series *The Black Company* (where he must have picked up the use of descriptive and decidedly off color] nicknames for the military personnel). *Gardens of the Moon* starts off much like *Dune* and the *Black Company, in that you are literally thrown into the middle of this fully realized world, replete with an ancient but still living prehistory (in the form of the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut), a powerful but aloof alien species (in the form of the Tiste Andii), and a host of elder gods who are anything but passive and who routinely interfere and direct the lives of the general populace. I remember when i was a teenager and I had heard of a movie called Dune* which was apparently based upon a best-selling novel. The premise intrigued me to the point where I read the book and then immediately saw the movie by David Lynch. I did not see the movie alone. I took my cousin with me. My female cousin who knew nothing of sci-fi or fantasy and who probably was looking for a movie like Gremlins or *Ghostbusters, rather than a strange sci-fantasy like Dune. And the movie was incredibly strange. If i had not read the book…i don't think even I would have been able to pick up on all of the subtle nuances and grand scope of things without having read the book first. I can't imagine what it must have been like for my poor cousin, who was so confused and befuddled afterwards that all she could do was ask "What is the 'water of life'? and why did he keep saying 'the sleeper has awakened'?" I recount this story only to illustrate a potential problem point: readers who are looking for the standard/typical mode of fantasy storytelling which have become so predictable that many times we're not looking for diversity in narrative, but rather looking at what type of new "power" is being contested or won. No, Gardens of the Moon* will be as baffling and mysterious and potentially frustrating for many readers who are looking for something straightforward and simple to explain. Such is not the case with this series. Steven Erikson has created a complex and living breathing world and populated with various races and cultures and countries and thrown them into this story. And what is the story? It's hard to say really. There are so many narrative plot points. But I think the fundamental story is something happened thousands of years before, something so terrible and cataclysmic that the repercussions of the action and decision have reverberated throughout history, affecting the elder races and have now culminated into a series of devastating and world-ending consequences that the modern races and their current use of magic must now contend with the here and now. I having been reading this series for the past few years now, and am on the last few novels. These books are not easy to read, but they yield so much pleasure in terms of epic storytelling and the range of characters. I will point out two things that you may need to know about the entire series: First, Steven Erikson believes that all characters, big and small, matter. You might agree with that viewpoint, but if you think about what that really means, it means that each and every little character gets their share of the page, meaning what would normally be a 400 page book could turn into a 1,000 page book because the lives and dreams of each and every character is detailed and told. hence the massive length of most of Erikson's books. Second, Steven Erikson's prose style is almost as complex and flowery as his story and settings. This prose is as purple as purple can get. But with that said, these books are marvelous. And if you can get through the first book, as dense and complex as it is, then you will be rewarded by the 2nd and 3rd books, *Deadhouse Gates* and *Memories of Ice, which are about as good as anything i've ever read. The book Deadhouse Gates* will break your heart with its grueling story about Coltaine's Chain of Dogs. And *Memories of Ice* will astound you in its scope and power; it is perhaps Erikson's one Masterpiece, though some may argue that the entire series is what constitutes his masterwork. but if one were to give the word masterpiece to any one of his novels, it would probably have to be *Memories of Ice.* But in order to get there, you have to go through *Gardens of the Moon*, which is not his best work, but the beginning of his greatest work.

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07-18-2013, 10:08 AM	#16
Istvan diVega Inharmonious Posts: 416 Karma: 2157616 Join Date: Jan 2013 Device: Sony PRS-950, Galaxy Tab 2 10.1	Start Malazan Book of the Fallen. I can easily see Martin doing a Jordan before finishing his series, considering he's no spring chicken and seems determined to do absolutely everything ASoIaF-related except actually sitting down to write the remaining books. Also, though I like both series I think Erikson's is easily the better. As far as Gardens of the Moon goes, I enjoyed it a lot. It's not as good as the following books, Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice, but that's only because those are both exceptional. All in all I'd say that Malazan Book of the Fallen quite possibly is the best fantasy series I've read in the last 35 years.

07-19-2013, 04:33 PM	#21
GreenMonkey DRM hater Posts: 945 Karma: 2066176 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Michigan Device: Nook ST glow, Kindle Voyage	I'm a big fan of Martin (pending he finishes Ice & Fire and it doesn't suck he's my second favorite author after Robin Hobb). Ice & Fire is awfully good to me. I re-read the whole series each time a new book comes out. I passed on it for years after my experience with the Wheel of Time (which I consider pretty terrible) but Ice & Fire is actually really good. I read Gardens of the Moon and I'm not sure what I thought. I haven't bounced off a book that hard / had that much difficulty keeping things straight and dealing with difficult-to-read-prose since I read The Two Towers in 6th grade. Or maybe Gene Wolfe's Claw of the Conciliator I read a few year ago which I think still makes my head hurt. I came out of it deciding I'd give it some time, and then re-read book 1 again before trying some more of the series.

07-19-2013, 09:51 PM	#22
Istvan diVega Inharmonious Posts: 416 Karma: 2157616 Join Date: Jan 2013 Device: Sony PRS-950, Galaxy Tab 2 10.1	If you really, really can't get to grips with Gardens of the Moon, then just kick it away and proceed straight to Deadhouse Gates. It's not an ideal solution and you'll be missing lots of stuff, but nothing that is absolutely crucial later on. If you find that Deadhouse Gates too is tough going, then you can safely write off the whole yarn as unsuitable for your tastes.

07-20-2013, 06:57 AM	#24
drofgnal Wizard Posts: 1,403 Karma: 10519918 Join Date: Dec 2009 Device: Ipad Pro/Kindle Oasis 3/iPhone 13 Pro Max	I'd vote Erikson. I haven't read it yet, but I say that having soured on GRRM. Book 4 was horrible, and 5 wasn't a whole lot better. Like others here, I'm also concerned if he'll ever finish it. I read Martin has a contingency for the tv series to finish it. (He's told the producers how it should end), but said he doesn't want another writer finishing it should that be necessary. It sounds like he'd leave the readers hanging. He doesn't seem to be in a hurry to finish writing it, and heaven forbid he write anything during football season and miss his beloved Jets.

07-21-2013, 02:09 PM	#28
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,550 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	True .

07-21-2013, 06:50 PM	#29
jgaiser Omnivorous Posts: 3,283 Karma: 27978909 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rural NW Oregon Device: Kindle Voyage, Kindle Fire HD, Kindle 3, KPW1	Thanks for everybody's recommendations. I've decided to try Gardens of the Moon next. In fact I've jumped into the deep end and have read the Prologue and first chapter and I can see I'm in for a confusing ride.

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