Ellipses - Page 2

AlexBell · 05-19-2013, 06:42 AM

And then of course there is the discussion about style rules for ellipses.

I've never heard or seen the the rule three periods within a sentence and four at the end of a sentence.

The publisher I work for and I have agreed that ellipses are three periods, and follow the preceding word with a space before the next word. How does that grab you?

I've seen them used with no spaces, like...this, and with a space on either side like ... this. But I think our way, like... this, looks better.

And then the next question is how to prevent and ellipsis at the end of a sentence and end of a line being orphaned on to the next line. I think that looks ugly.

pdurrant · 05-19-2013, 06:51 AM

According to Piers Anthony, ellipses are the method by which a romantic couple in a story try to summon the stork. The movie equivalent seems to be crashing waves on a beach.

Apache · 05-19-2013, 08:59 AM

Have a cup of... ... ... ... ...

Apache

BeccaPrice · 05-19-2013, 09:48 AM

Many years ago, I was sick and had the IQ of a doorknob, and so read a bunch of Barbara Cartland books (romances). The heroines always spoke in breathy ellipses, never a complete sentence. If you took out all the ellipses in the book, already a slim volume, it would have been half the original size.

Prestidigitweeze · 05-19-2013, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexBell

And then of course there is the discussion about style rules for ellipses.

I've never heard or seen the the rule three periods within a sentence and four at the end of a sentence. . . . And then the next question is how to prevent and ellipsis at the end of a sentence and end of a line being orphaned on to the next line. I think that looks ugly.

1. So far as I ken, the rule also applies in Australia, but I'd be very interested to know whether any credible reference books from there suggest otherwise. Since you, too, are in the field, I expect you've had a look.

Here's a sampling of the many, many reference sources that confirm the three- and four-point rule.

A look at Chicago Manual of Style (for publishing) will show that the rule for ellipses is always three points within a sentence (or to indicate an incomplete one) and four at the end of complete sentence. The idea becomes more logical if you read the additional point as the period which ends the sentence added to the three ellipsis points. If you add spaces between the points (which I prefer), then the initial period is squeezed and the three that follow are floating: "Ably . . . I saw Elba. . . ."

From Subsection 13.51 of the Chicago Style Manual (which doesn't allow me to link unless the reader is a subscriber):

Quote:

13.51: Ellipses with periods. A period is added before an ellipsis to indicate the omission of the end of a sentence,
unless the sentence is deliberately incomplete. . . .

The Modern Language Association's (MLA) cite style also makes the same distinction:

Quote:

When the ellipsis coincides with the end of your sentence, use three periods with a space before each following a sentence period–that is, four periods, with no space before the first or after the last.

Sample complications: (i) an ellipsis after a comma when the comma is retained for sense or (b) between a quote-within-a-quote and the rest of the quote when both are ending at once but contain different omissions.

Likewise the Bluebook: A Uniform System of Citation, which is de rigeur for writing legal articles. The site requires a subscription, but the Bluebook itself is available everywhere, including Amazon. This back-door search via Google Books shows an additional unique usage for four-point ellipses (note the excerpt from p. 47).

If you're burning with the need for a definitive rule from the Bluebook about four points, I'll supply one for you on Monday or Tuesday. Unfortunately, I'm not home at the moment and have never found a way to travel with my entire reference library.

2. The way to stop the last or first point from being orphaned is to use hard (i.e., nonbreaking) spaces.

pholy · 05-19-2013, 04:55 PM

The mention of spaces between the periods is interesting, especially considering that there is a Unicode character & hellip; or & #8239; which has all three dots with only thin spaces between them. The sentence ending full stop could of course come on either side of the ellipsis.
BTW, I think I recall seeing a vertical ellipsis character, but I don't know how it might be used and I'm too lazy to look it up. Pretty sure it's in The Unicode Book.

Prestidigitweeze · 05-19-2013, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pholy

The mention of spaces between the periods is interesting, especially considering that there is a Unicode character & hellip; or & #8239; which has all three dots with only thin spaces between them. The sentence ending full stop could of course come on either side of the ellipsis.
BTW, I think I recall seeing a vertical ellipsis character, but I don't know how it might be used and I'm too lazy to look it up. Pretty sure it's in The Unicode Book.

That semi-closed spacing in the Unicode character is part of the reason that many of us like to use true spaces for all four points: So that the added period which closes the sentence (and other such punctuation marks) won't be followed by an uneven space. The goal is consistency.

BTW I did look up the vertical ellipsis character. Thanks for pointing it out.

AndrewH · 05-20-2013, 01:25 AM

I like ellipses, I find them much more natural than the em dash which seems to be prevalent in modern fiction. (Though they probably have different uses, in practice they seem to be used interchangeably.)

If ellipses are representative of text omitted, then it makes sense for them to have a space before and after. I've seen the rule for a period followed by ellipses at the end of the sentence, but it (a) just looks wrong and (b) if the sentence just trails off, as denoted by the ellipses, then it's lacking a proper ending and a period seems wrong, like ending a question with both a period and a question mark, or an exclamation with both a period and an exclamation mark.

When it comes to ebooks, I'm always pleased to see when the author (or publisher) uses & hellip;. Ellipses breaking across lines is distracting.

Catlady · 05-20-2013, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

I like ellipses, I find them much more natural than the em dash which seems to be prevalent in modern fiction. (Though they probably have different uses, in practice they seem to be used interchangeably.)

In dialog, an em dash would be used for an abrupt break or interruption, an ellipsis for a pause or a trailing off.

AlexBell · 05-20-2013, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

1. So far as I ken, the rule also applies in Australia, but I'd be very interested to know whether any credible reference books from there suggest otherwise. Since you, too, are in the field, I expect you've had a look.

Here's a sampling of the many, many reference sources that confirm the three- and four-point rule.

Thank you Prestidigitweeze, I'm overwhelmed by your erudition. It's a pity that HTML only allows … which gives only three periods.

Perhaps I'd better think again...

LovesMacs · 05-20-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

According to Piers Anthony, ellipses are the method by which a romantic couple in a story try to summon the stork. The movie equivalent seems to be crashing waves on a beach.

That gives an entirely new meaning to the following mundane conversation:

"What do you think?"
"Umm...I don't know exactly..."
"Yeah...I can't quite put my finger on it...something's not quite right..."
"Maybe this way?...no..."

DebbyS · 05-21-2013, 08:00 PM

I liked to use ellipses to indicate a pause, and a dash to indicate a change of direction of speech, broken speech, incomplete sentences, etc. Then someone told me not to use ... in legal transcription because it mean word/s/phrase/s were being skipped! Yikes! For legal transcription -- transcribe everything! (unless it cannot be heard, then I use [inaudible] or [unintelligible], depending on if there was noise drowning out the speaker or if the speaker was chewing food at the same time or something they could have been smarter about). I continue use the dashes, though, to indicate fragmented sentences or interuptions.

Witness: And then i said --
Counselor: You called him a murderer, didn't you?
Witness: -- "there's always time for pie."

All these legal rules now creep into my transcribing or typing stories, where I think sometimes we really need to indicate that thoughtful pause....

Solitaire1 · 05-24-2013, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elcreative

Personally I find ellipses really interfere with reading... having the page cluttered up with ovoid shapes all over the place makes a real mess of the text but I find the occasional ellipsis useful in dialogue as long as it isn't overdone...

I agree that when used properly ellipses are an aid when writing dialog since it can better indicate the gaps when someone is speaking, better than a common can. Like with any punctuation, improper use hinders reader.

tompe · 05-25-2013, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

I agree that when used properly ellipses are an aid when writing dialog since it can better indicate the gaps when someone is speaking, better than a common can. Like with any punctuation, improper use hinders reader.

The good thing with dialog in books is that you do not have these annoying gaps that we have in real life.

Fluribus · 05-25-2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

The good thing with dialog in books is that you do not have these annoying gaps that we have in real life.

I love gaps. People rush far too quickly into the gaps. Sound and silence dance together beautifully.

05-20-2013, 01:25 AM	#23
AndrewH Fanatic Posts: 553 Karma: 1234566 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Device: Sony PRS-T1, & Kobo Mini	I like ellipses, I find them much more natural than the em dash which seems to be prevalent in modern fiction. (Though they probably have different uses, in practice they seem to be used interchangeably.) If ellipses are representative of text omitted, then it makes sense for them to have a space before and after. I've seen the rule for a period followed by ellipses at the end of the sentence, but it (a) just looks wrong and (b) if the sentence just trails off, as denoted by the ellipses, then it's lacking a proper ending and a period seems wrong, like ending a question with both a period and a question mark, or an exclamation with both a period and an exclamation mark. When it comes to ebooks, I'm always pleased to see when the author (or publisher) uses & hellip;. Ellipses breaking across lines is distracting. Last edited by AndrewH; 05-20-2013 at 01:43 AM.

05-21-2013, 08:00 PM	#27
DebbyS Zealot Posts: 115 Karma: 1472692 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Device: Jetbook Lite; Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (7.0)	I liked to use ellipses to indicate a pause, and a dash to indicate a change of direction of speech, broken speech, incomplete sentences, etc. Then someone told me not to use ... in legal transcription because it mean word/s/phrase/s were being skipped! Yikes! For legal transcription -- transcribe everything! (unless it cannot be heard, then I use [inaudible] or [unintelligible], depending on if there was noise drowning out the speaker or if the speaker was chewing food at the same time or something they could have been smarter about). I continue use the dashes, though, to indicate fragmented sentences or interuptions. Witness: And then i said -- Counselor: You called him a murderer, didn't you? Witness: -- "there's always time for pie." All these legal rules now creep into my transcribing or typing stories, where I think sometimes we really need to indicate that thoughtful pause.... Last edited by DebbyS; 05-21-2013 at 08:02 PM.

05-19-2013, 06:42 AM	#16
AlexBell Wizard Posts: 3,413 Karma: 13369310 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Launceston, Tasmania Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet	And then of course there is the discussion about style rules for ellipses. I've never heard or seen the the rule three periods within a sentence and four at the end of a sentence. The publisher I work for and I have agreed that ellipses are three periods, and follow the preceding word with a space before the next word. How does that grab you? I've seen them used with no spaces, like...this, and with a space on either side like ... this. But I think our way, like... this, looks better. And then the next question is how to prevent and ellipsis at the end of a sentence and end of a line being orphaned on to the next line. I think that looks ugly.

05-19-2013, 06:51 AM	#17
pdurrant The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠 Posts: 73,979 Karma: 315160596 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Norfolk, England Device: Kindle Oasis	According to Piers Anthony, ellipses are the method by which a romantic couple in a story try to summon the stork. The movie equivalent seems to be crashing waves on a beach.

05-19-2013, 08:59 AM	#18
Apache Readaholic Posts: 5,277 Karma: 90000484 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: South Georgia Device: Surface Pro 6 / Galaxy Tab A 8"	Have a cup of... ... ... ... ... Apache

05-19-2013, 09:48 AM	#19
BeccaPrice Wizard Posts: 2,146 Karma: 11174187 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: Sony 350, K3-3G, K4SO, KPW	Many years ago, I was sick and had the IQ of a doorknob, and so read a bunch of Barbara Cartland books (romances). The heroines always spoke in breathy ellipses, never a complete sentence. If you took out all the ellipses in the book, already a slim volume, it would have been half the original size.

05-19-2013, 04:55 PM	#21
pholy Booklegger Posts: 1,801 Karma: 7999816 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Device: BeBook(1 & 2010), PEZ, PRS-505, Kobo BT, PRS-T1, Playbook, Kobo Touch	The mention of spaces between the periods is interesting, especially considering that there is a Unicode character & hellip; or & #8239; which has all three dots with only thin spaces between them. The sentence ending full stop could of course come on either side of the ellipsis. BTW, I think I recall seeing a vertical ellipsis character, but I don't know how it might be used and I'm too lazy to look it up. Pretty sure it's in The Unicode Book.

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