Lending DRM'd books to a friend

[nogle]

Originally Posted by SeigneurAo

Well IIRC the problem is precisely that you never really own an ebook.
You buy a right to possess and read a copy, but the product is not yours entirely, to dispose of as you wish.
I may stand corrected but that's what I recall about digital material (same goes for digital music).

Not just eBooks. When you buy a physical book, you do not get the right to make and distribute copies. Read the copyright notice inside any book.

[SeigneurAo]

Originally Posted by nogle

Not just eBooks. When you buy a physical book, you do not get the right to make and distribute copies. Read the copyright notice inside any book.

No but you can surely lend it to a friend or sell it on the second hand market.

[nogle]

Originally Posted by jusmee

If I own something, I should be entitled to let a friend borrow it for a while. I can't believe anyone can reasonably argue against this.

You are free to hand them your eReader with the book on it for as long as you/they desire. Just as long as you don't make and distribute copies of the book. Even with a physical book, you do not buy the right to make copies.

[John F]

Originally Posted by SeigneurAo

Okay so I have not been able to locate this in Kobo terms just yet, but here goes for Amazon and Kindle :

Source
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=201014950
(Paragraph 1.1 Use of Kindle Content)

Mark the bold text. AFAIK this is the same for most ebooks sellers.

If your going to go by the EULA, then you should probably go by the copyright notice in the pbooks you buy, for example (the relevant portion):

... No part of the book may be used or reproduced in any manner whatsoever without written permission except...

I wonder how many readers check with the copyright holder first to see if it is OK to read the pbook?

[SeigneurAo]

Originally Posted by John F

If your going to go by the EULA, then you should probably go by the copyright notice in the pbooks you buy, for example (the relevant portion):
I wonder how many readers check with the copyright holder first to see if it is OK to read the pbook?

The main difference being, in my opinion, that with ebooks editors do have the means to enforce these policies, whereas it is quite complicated with paper books, as you rightly put it.

[David Soulayrol]

When you buy a book, you really buy an object. You can read it, multiple time, give it, sell it, you can throw it in the corner of your room and find it again months later. The main ban is that you cannot copy it. But this ban, the subject of the copyright, applies to the content, not the object.

With a A DRM protected file, you own really nothing else than the right to access to some content as long as some organization authorizes it, and only with the softwares they accept. And the copyright still applies to the content.

[G0AT]

Originally Posted by David Soulayrol

When you buy a book, you really buy an object. You can read it, multiple time, give it, sell it, you can throw it in the corner of your room and find it again months later. The main ban is that you cannot copy it. But this ban, the subject of the copyright, applies to the content, not the object.

With a A DRM protected file, you own really nothing else than the right to access to some content as long as some organization authorizes it, and only with the softwares they accept. And the copyright still applies to the content.

This isn't wrong, but as long as people are paying similar prices as pbooks, they're going to expect to be able to do the same things with their ebooks. So the publisher's pricing and the consumer's rights are out of whack.

[nogle]

Originally Posted by SeigneurAo

The main difference being, in my opinion, that with ebooks editors do have the means to enforce these policies, whereas it is quite complicated with paper books, as you rightly put it.

In the past, book publishers could rely upon the fact that it was prohibitively expensive to make small numbers of copies of a book. Rather than photocopy or pay a scribe to correctly transcribe a book. it was cheaper to just buy another copy. With digital files, the effective price of a user copying a book approaches 0. Thus, publishers have sought out other means of reducing the incentive to copy.

[nogle]

Originally Posted by David Soulayrol

When you buy a book, you really buy an object. You can read it, multiple time, give it, sell it, you can throw it in the corner of your room and find it again months later. The main ban is that you cannot copy it. But this ban, the subject of the copyright, applies to the content, not the object.

With a A DRM protected file, you own really nothing else than the right to access to some content as long as some organization authorizes it, and only with the softwares they accept. And the copyright still applies to the content.

With a physical book, if you forget how to read or burn your book, you also lose the book. With an eBook, as long as you maintain software capable of reading the file, you can read it (assuming again that you maintian the ability to read). As far as I am aware, the onus is on the user to maintain the ability (software) to access the file.

[David Soulayrol]

Originally Posted by nogle

With an eBook, as long as you maintain software capable of reading the file, you can read it (assuming again that you maintian the ability to read). As far as I am aware, the onus is on the user to maintain the ability (software) to access the file.

The problem is precisely that you don't have the possibility to maintain the way to open DRM files by yourself. DRM are closed-source, protected by patents, and it is generally illegal to circumvent them. So owning a DRM protected file is simply owning the authorization to read its content for an undefined duration.

Of course, if the DRM is no more protected, or if the law changes, then you are right. But in this case, the DRM have no more purpose.

[filmo]

Amazon has lend a book to a one friend with a kindle for 14 days system. Publishers limit which books you can lend. Kobo never had this lending system but you could borrow e-books from pubic library for reading on Kobo reader long before this was possible with kindle readers.

[SeigneurAo]

I don't know exactly what a pubic library might be, but I'm pretty sure I'd like to visit one.

[jusmee]

Originally Posted by SeigneurAo

No but you can surely lend it to a friend or sell it on the second hand market.

Sure can.

The point about "sales" of digital media vs licencing to view, made me think of DVD's also. I can buy a DVD and lend it to a friend. I can buy a CD and lend it to a friend. Ebook sellers are being too greedy IMO.

[jusmee]

Originally Posted by David Soulayrol

The problem is precisely that you don't have the possibility to maintain the way to open DRM files by yourself. DRM are closed-source, protected by patents, and it is generally illegal to circumvent them. So owning a DRM protected file is simply owning the authorization to read its content for an undefined duration.

Of course, if the DRM is no more protected, or if the law changes, then you are right. But in this case, the DRM have no more purpose.

Yes, but a mechanism is designed into them to allow lending/borrowing. Libraries use it. When ebooks were touted in the news, this ability was mentioned in the context of person to person loaning "just like a real book". It's a feature they have conveniently not allowed for in their desktop/reader software (e.g. ADE).

[jusmee]

Originally Posted by SeigneurAo

I don't know exactly what a pubic library might be, but I'm pretty sure I'd like to visit one.

In my case a public library is a government run facility with a large collection of books, where you can go and read the books for free, and also go and borrow books for set time periods (2 weeks, 4 weeks etc) and take them home and read them for free, returning them within the borrowing period.

More recently, you can go the library's web site and borrow ebooks, again for a limited time period. You don't have to return them, they expire after the time period. By expire, I mean the DRM ceases to allow you to open and read them after they have expired.