EU forcing DRM interoperability

[Arek_W]

***The language of the announcement talks repeatedly about "encouragement" and "recommendations," but the Commission seems to be making an implicit promise to regulate in these areas if more is not done over the next few years by the private sector.***

Hey guys, we live in this block & when Brussels talk about "encouragement" and "recommendations", we know something will be done in 3015 . Forget it empty talk ...

[msundman]

Originally Posted by Hadrien

[The EC is] pushing for content owners to get their collective act together and produce a truly interoperable, consumer-friendly DRM system.

In related news the EC is pushing for animal-friendly hunting rifles, fish-friendly fishing hooks, (ab)user-friendly narcotics and prisoner-friendly electric chairs.

[msundman]

Originally Posted by HarryT

An eBook with DRM is better than no eBook at all.

I strongly disagree. As long as devices support DRM publishers will use it, and the society can't afford to go down the e-book road if that means books will become DRM-infested.

[spanky]

I think that is a fabulous step forward for ebooks. I'd kill to be able to put the ebooks from my dead ebookwise onto a newer device.

[Mikou]

Originally Posted by HarryT

An eBook with DRM is better than no eBook at all.

I bought a book with DRM from Sony's Connect store. I planned to read it during my vacation. The day before my vacation started, my eReader was damaged (cracked screen.) Two weeks later and a few phone calls later and I still don't have the final word on how my eReader will be serviced. I'm also a Mac user, so I couldn't even read the book on my computer if I wanted to (I don't because of the eye-strain induced migraines I get.)

So, for me, an eBook with DRM might as well be no eBook at all.

[sianon]

Originally Posted by Mikou

I bought a book with DRM from Sony's Connect store. I planned to read it during my vacation. The day before my vacation started, my eReader was damaged (cracked screen.) Two weeks later and a few phone calls later and I still don't have the final word on how my eReader will be serviced. I'm also a Mac user, so I couldn't even read the book on my computer if I wanted to (I don't because of the eye-strain induced migraines I get.)

So, for me, an eBook with DRM might as well be no eBook at all.

It is awful that you have broken the screen of your sony and I hope you are able to get it fixed quickly.

If you had bought a paper book which became damaged, you would not be able to read it either.

An e-book without DRM would also be useless to you once you have broken your device, given your statement thta you dnt read from the computer due to migraines.

[msundman]

Originally Posted by sianon

It is awful that you have broken the screen of your sony and I hope you are able to get it fixed quickly.

If you had bought a paper book which became damaged, you would not be able to read it either.

You're not very good with analogies, are you?
That an e-book stops working when a specific reader device breaks is more similar to that a p-book stops working when a specific pair of glasses break.
People expect to be able to get a new pair of glasses (any make/model) and have all their p-books "working" with the new glasses, and similarly people should expect to be able to get a new reading device (any make/model) and have all their e-books working with the new device.

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

An eBook with DRM is better than no eBook at all.

Depends on customer's requirements.

If DRMed ebook is priced higher than £1~$2, then it is as good as a book that has never been published in ebook format - for me

[SpiderMatt]

I hate the EU. I hate them so much. They act as if the products of a company are a right and not a privilege. The people who own a company have a right to do whatever they want to with their products. If people don't like what a company does, they don't have to buy from them. They tried to force Apple to open up their DRM and Jobs caved just by starting to get rid of it. While it's better for consumers and the music industry, it doesn't change the fact that Apple should be free to do whatever they want with their products. How is it Apple's fault that people continue to buy their products and music companies remain signed with them? They're obviously offering something that's better than the alternative. If not, then people wouldn't buy from them.

The EU forced Microsoft to release a version of Windows without media player. When Microsoft finally complied, the OS bombed. Few people wanted Windows without Media Player. The EU also required Microsft to release source code for their OS, and they did for Server 2003. This hasn't done anything to help other companies, but it only infringes on Microsoft's rights. I wish companies as rich as Microsft and Apple would forget about the European market and stand on principle. I wish they would just refuse to comply and would offer no services to EU nations until the EU backed off. And they would back off because people WANT products from Apple and Microsoft. It's hard to explain how much the audacity of the EU pisses me off. I don't mean to go on a pointless angry rant, though. My point is that the EU is hurting the future marketplace and I don't want the repercussions to carry over to the U.S.

The EU isn't the only thing I hate (the list is actually quite long, but most of it is unrelated to this thread); I also hate DRM. However, government has no business mandating changes to it or its elimination. DRM helped get copyrighted materials up for sale on the Internet. It's likely that we wouldn't have most of the stuff available to us now in digital form without DRM (except for what's offered through piracy, of course). No one would purchase DRM products if people didn't find them to be better than the alternative (I don't care if your reasoning is that it's cheaper or more convenient or whatever else you like about downloading your entertainment). If you purchase ebooks and don't like them better than something else you might purchase, I'd ask why you don't just flush your money down the toilet. While the EU was busy filing lawsuits and costing the companies whose products their citizens enjoy millions of dollars, music with DRM was going the way of the dodo due to market forces. While Steve Jobs was clearly reacting to pressure from Europe, Amazon made its move to offer music without DRM and for a cheaper price. Even while iTunes was booming, eMusic remained (and remains) the second largest distributer of digital music without any DRM music. The idea that the market would not move away from or make changes to DRM without threats from governments is absurd and grotesque.

Ebooks are only now becoming more popular due to eInk devices (and especially the hype surrounding the Amazon Kindle). For the most part, I can't imagine publishers diving into the market without any DRM because they are unsure of what the profits will be like. The printed page still remains a much more lucrative business than ebooks. Of course publishers are going to be skeptical. In this sense, DRM is allowing companies to test the waters in the same way it did for music and movies. Consumers will call for an elimination of DRM on ebooks soon enough. It's why hackers constantly find ways of allowing people to crack DRM. It's not meant to be criminal, it's meant to allow consumers make full use of what they paid for. Frankly, I find nothing criminal about removing DRM from something I legally purchased. If you bought it, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. I don't imagine many in this community plan on sharing their legal purchases for free, anyway. I think piracy is less of a threat than the industry thinks it is; they're just reacting the wrong way.

Hmmm... I seem to have ranted on long enough. I really only came here to express my distaste with the EU, but I couldn't really do that without explaining why. It wouldn't have been fair. So there you have it.

[msundman]

Originally Posted by SpiderMatt

They're obviously offering something that's better than the alternative. If not, then people wouldn't buy from them.
[...]
My point is that the EU is hurting the future marketplace and I don't want the repercussions to carry over to the U.S.
[...]
No one would purchase DRM products if people didn't find them to be better than the alternative

You seem to be under the evidently incorrect impression that the best product wins on a (free) market. Also, you also seem to think that much better alternatives that aren't yet available would actually be something that consumers could choose instead of the inferior products that are currently available.

Originally Posted by SpiderMatt

The idea that the market would not move away from or make changes to DRM without threats from governments is absurd and grotesque.

Why would the market move away from DRM? As long as most of the big titles are only available with DRM there is no pressure to move away from DRM. If people want those titles (and they do, per definition) then they will just have to accept whatever restrictions the publishers want to impose on readers because there is no alternative. It's all very similar to price fixing, which is illegal in most countries, for a very good reason.

Actually at the moment there is an alternative to DRM. Namely to get the titles illegally. Hopefully the publishers will realize that there needs to be a legal alternative before too many consumers learn and get used to getting all their books illegally (which also happens to be more or less gratis).

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by msundman

As long as devices support DRM publishers will use it, and the society can't afford to go down the e-book road if that means books will become DRM-infested.

Seems to me that e-books are already pretty DRM-infested. going to a single DRM solution, or DRM that doesn't prevent moving books around seems like at least a small step in the general direction of sanity from my perspective.

[msundman]

Originally Posted by msundman

As long as devices support DRM publishers will use it, and the society can't afford to go down the e-book road if that means books will become DRM-infested.

E-books are, yes, but books in general are not. We can't go down the e-book road if it means that p-books will be predominantly replaced by e-books that are DRM-infested. Most of the literature must remain unencumbered.

Originally Posted by NatCh

going to a single DRM solution, or DRM that doesn't prevent moving books around seems like at least a small step in the general direction of sanity from my perspective.

No. It's better to have this current mess so that people will get so sick and tired of it that they unite to abolish DRM. The worst that could happen is that DRM would become barely tolerable for a majority of people. That would maximize the suffering caused by DRM.

[SpiderMatt]

Originally Posted by msundman

You seem to be under the evidently incorrect impression that the best product wins on a (free) market. Also, you also seem to think that much better alternatives that aren't yet available would actually be something that consumers could choose instead of the inferior products that are currently available.

Consumers choose a product for a reason. Price and convenience seem to be fairly popular reasons. Whether for these reasons or any other, the chosen product offers something another does not. Consumers can let companies know they want what isn't being offered by not purchasing what they have to offer. The idea that a person has to buy the product just because he wanted something similar is ludicrous. If anyone is so desparate for an ebook that he is willing to buy one with DRM, then that person is proving the company right. He is, in effect, saying, "This product isn't quite what I wanted, but it sure beats having to buy a paper book." Just like people can buy CD's without DRM, they can buy physical books without DRM. I respect your stance against DRM, but if you purchase ebooks with DRM just because it's the only legal ebook you can get, then you're hurting your cause (and you shouldn't call in the government to clean up the mess).

Originally Posted by msundman

Why would the market move away from DRM? As long as most of the big titles are only available with DRM there is no pressure to move away from DRM. If people want those titles (and they do, per definition) then they will just have to accept whatever restrictions the publishers want to impose on readers because there is no alternative. It's all very similar to price fixing, which is illegal in most countries, for a very good reason.

The music market is rapidly moving away from DRM. Not because of the EU, but because people want it. Amazon has acted as a catalyst here, signing several big labels over to their mp3 store. Amazon offers a better product for less money and iTunes will soon have to come to grips with that and actually compete for once. Why did iTunes stay on top so long? Apparently people thought that paying $.99 for a song with DRM was better than purchasing a CD they could rip to their computer at better quality and no DRM restrictions. I fail to see how that's Apple's fault. In every case of DRM, there is an alternative. There are no restrictions on paper books and that is always an option.* The "no alternative" argument is bunk. People can always read a book without DRM. The dilemma is if you want to pay more for it or not. One of the key words you use above is "want." People want books, they don't need them. I'm skeptical about the government providing everyone's needs, much less trying to cover everyone's wants. How spoiled does a person have to be to force someone else to do his bidding because he wants it that way?

Originally Posted by msundman

Actually at the moment there is an alternative to DRM. Namely to get the titles illegally. Hopefully the publishers will realize that there needs to be a legal alternative before too many consumers learn and get used to getting all their books illegally (which also happens to be more or less gratis).

I pretty much completely agree with this. As I said before, companies are reacting to piracy the wrong way. They seem to be digging themselves deeper with every DRM product released.

*The following idea seems to be controversial among some in these forums, but I don't see why. If you want an ebook legally, but don't want DRM and price is no issue, purchasing the paper book and obtaining a digital copy--whether you scan it yourself or not--should be legal. I am aware of no U.S. law (I can't speak for other countries) that says this is illegal. After all, if you're caught with a digital library of things you physically own, you can't be arrested on charges of theft. You clearly haven't stolen anything.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by msundman

E-books are, yes, but books in general are not. We can't go down the e-book road if it means that p-books will be predominantly replaced by e-books that are DRM-infested. Most of the literature must remain unencumbered.

I don't believe we're in any imminent danger of having paper books replaced by e-books on a large scale -- "this mess" you refer too, of both formats and DRM and the mutual incompatibilities thereof, is just the most obvious and infuriating of the obstacles e-books face.

And, of course, much of what most folks consider "literature" is public domain, and therefore exempted from the "mess" in the first place.

Originally Posted by msundman

No. It's better to have this current mess so that people will get so sick and tired of it that they unite to abolish DRM. The worst that could happen is that DRM would become barely tolerable for a majority of people. That would maximize the suffering caused by DRM.

See, I figure they're more likely to get sick and tired of the whole e-book business and ignore it completely. Oh, wait, that's largely what's been happening for the last 15 years ....

I know there are those who vehemently disagree with me on this point, and they're quite welcome to their opinions, so far as I'm concerned (especially those who consider their opinions, the rest of them are just so much noise, don't you think? ), but as far as I'm concerned, if DRM stays out of my way so long as I'm not trying to do anything illegal, then I'm willing to live with it to a large extent. An inter-operable DRM could go a long way toward that end. It at least gets folks thinking in terms of cooperating, rather than competing to the point of ruining the market.

To my thinking, a common or inter-operable DRM that isn't an obstacle to most folks using e-books as they want to use them (in the sense that it doesn't control where and how they read their books, I mean) would result in more folks getting involved in e-books. The more folks who are involved with them, the more voices there are griping about the DRM (and the other e-book obstacles), and the more likely the issue is to be truly resolved instead of just band-aided.

People who have no interest or stake in e-books (whether because of DRM or format conflicts or whatever reason), just aren't likely to unite against anything having to do with e-books: they won't find intolerable what they simply avoid.

In my experience people tend to have to have a stake in something before they care enough to try to change it. If they don't care they just don't bother.

The fewer e-book users there are, the quieter and more ignorable our collective voice is.

But that's just what makes sense to me.

[shousa]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

You're right. The publishers reduced our choices and locked us in to MS products and Adobe products and Sony products and Mobipocket products--all at the same time. And now the Kindle comes along and the publishers reduced our choices again by adding that format and locking us in to yet another device. It's just inhuman.

100% agree - inhuman.

We need some strong government intervention here.

Self-legislation, which is what is happening here (one could argue) has been outright proven to fail in many sectors of the economy eg financial, product quality, food etc the list goes on and on.