Computer companies can not get the form factor right

[mobilesalesman]

Originally Posted by MsAnthrope

Engadget recently wrote about Paul Allen's flipstart umpc at flipstart.com. It's the size of a paperback, built-in keyboard, usb ports, Sprint evdo ready. RAM at 512MB isn't great but CPU is 1.1 GHz. It comes with XP or Vista and runs MS compatible apps. Battery life is only 3-6 hours. The price was just halved to 699 USD. I don't know what that might portend. Wikipedia has more info and links to different reviews. This seems to fit the bill for a pocket-portable PC but you'd probably have to carry an extra battery.

Regarding the flipstart, it is not pocket size as it is too wide and it is a thumb device. I believe those two issues, 1 - not being a jacket pocket computer, and 2- being a thumb input rather than touch type input is why they are not popular and are dropping the price.

"RWood
Most computer hardware companies today are sheep, blind mice -- following each other in rote. Once upon a time I had an UMPC called a Psion. Its clam shell form fit my jacket pocket and the screen was easy to read. There was even a program for loading ebooks to it. That was over 10 years ago "

Rwood, you are absolutely right, computer companies have been blind mice cowering to MS with no creativity. MS came out with the UMPC spec and used their influence to eliminate any creativity. After over a year the UMPC has been a dud, with only 350K sales worldwide according to a Dec 07 Forbes article.

Psion was the only company that went against MS. They could not compete in both hardware and software at the same time. I think today with the technology enabling a full desktop OS to be built into a pocket size form factor; that now computer companies can get out of their sheep role. Now with the technology if someone created a modern Psion that had full desktop OS what can MS do? they can now create hardware without MS influencing the hardware in the wrong direction like they did with their UMPC flop.

"brecklundin
the biggest issue I have with these UMPC's and handhelds is they all seem to insist on adding a phone to the device. This puts the devices in a useless configuration for me. It not only affects the power use but also form factor. Also it almost forces a [potential] user to decide if paying extra for functionality they will likely never use is worth the premium. "

I agree that I would rather see a modern Psion be a pure computer that might have wireless abilities but not built around any attempt to be a phone as well. To me the problem is once it tries to be a phone, the form factor will assume that it must be shirt or pants pocket NOT jacket pocket. Thus the computer functionality will never be there as they will resort to a thumb keyboard instead of a touch type keyboard.

Keep it focused as a form factor alternative to a laptop for people whom value mobility and do not need the most blazing fast laptop. That way the form factor is based primarily on having a good touch type keyboard and the functionality of a laptop yet as small as possible to enable it to be stowed in a jacket pocket yet also be as large as possible given the size restrictions of that jacket pocket so that the keyboard and screen are as large as possible.

If a modern Psion was available that had full desktop OS, it woul easily be a huge hit and could sell easily from the $1000 to $1500 range with no problem. The problems of UMPC are they lack that ideal Psion form factor.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by mobilesalesman

[COLOR="royalblue"]Rwood, you are absolutely right, computer companies have been blind mice cowering to MS with no creativity. MS came out with the UMPC spec and used their influence to eliminate any creativity. After over a year the UMPC has been a dud, with only 350K sales worldwide according to a Dec 07 Forbes article.

The UMPC spec was a collaboration between MS and Intel, based on MS's "Origami" project.

MS and Intel both had problems. MS was facing slowing growth. The market for Windows and Office was largely saturated, with just about everything that could run them doing so. Vista wasn't out, MS hadn't had much luck on cracking the Indian and Chinese markets, and efforts in gaming (the X-Box) and online services (MSN) hadn't been home runs either. Intel was also facing challenges, losing market share to AMD.

What to do? A whole new platform that would run a flavor of Windows and use Intel processors.

Note who makes them: VIA, ASUS, Samsung, Future. Note who doesn't make them: Dell, Toshiba -- anyone with an existing laptop line.

And the UMPCs were rather carefully speced so that they would be poor candidates to replace a laptop.

What MS and Intel haven't been able to do is provide a compelling use case. Just what are we supposed to do with these UMPCs?

My use would be to replace a laptop, with a smaller, lighter, easier to carry device, but that's the last thing MS and Intel want.

The UMPC has problems because it's based on the needs of MS and Intel for new revenue sources, and not on the needs of the market.
______
Dennis

[mobilesalesman]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The UMPC spec was a collaboration between MS and Intel, based on MS's "Origami" project.

MS and Intel both had problems. MS was facing slowing growth. The market for Windows and Office was largely saturated, with just about everything that could run them doing so. Vista wasn't out, MS hadn't had much luck on cracking the Indian and Chinese markets, and efforts in gaming (the X-Box) and online services (MSN) hadn't been home runs either. Intel was also facing challenges, losing market share to AMD.

What to do? A whole new platform that would run a flavor of Windows and use Intel processors.

Note who makes them: VIA, ASUS, Samsung, Future. Note who doesn't make them: Dell, Toshiba -- anyone with an existing laptop line.

And the UMPCs were rather carefully speced so that they would be poor candidates to replace a laptop.

What MS and Intel haven't been able to do is provide a compelling use case. Just what are we supposed to do with these UMPCs?

My use would be to replace a laptop, with a smaller, lighter, easier to carry device, but that's the last thing MS and Intel want.

The UMPC has problems because it's based on the needs of MS and Intel for new revenue sources, and not on the needs of the market.
______
Dennis

UMPC's were a failure becuase they lack a keyboard, and they were not small enough to be jacket size. Additionally those flaws put them into a category which included other computers where they could not compete against them in other areas such as power, speed, and price.

Most UMPC's along with any sub or laptop running full windows has 2-4 hours battery life and that is not the best but usable. There are many people whom use other devices from blackberries, pda's, etc. that would buy a pocket jacket size laptop handheld yet still own a large laptop. I see hanhelds that could run full windows being a device to expand sales for companies like Toshiba and others whom sell laptops not reduce sales.

That zero sum thinking is enabling Linux and Apple a chance to get into the market for mobile computing and dig into future MS OS laptops. If you look at many of the new MIDS or UMPC type devices using Intels new chips some are now running Linux. I think MS and laptop companies should get their act together to create the next evolution to widen laptop sales via a handheld jacket version before they loose future sales to more competitors such as Apple and Linux devices.

The only good form factors seem to come from Korea but they are often WIMAX focused and we are not close to getting that advanced in wireless.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by mobilesalesman

[COLOR="Navy"]UMPC's were a failure becuase they lack a keyboard, and they were not small enough to be jacket size. Additionally those flaws put them into a category which included other computers where they could not compete against them in other areas such as power, speed, and price.

Lack of a keyboard doesn't bother me. I don't need a built in keyboard. I need the ability to connect an external one. On my Palm OS device, I have an IR keyboard. For a UMPC, it might be Bluetooth or mini-USB. But whichever it is, it will be something approximating a full sized keyboard. I want something I can type on, and not a glorified thumbboard.

"Jacket sized" is another questionable attribute. What exactly does that mean? Something I can carry in a jacket pocket? If so, I'm not interested. The biggest variable in form factor for me is screen size. It need to be big enough to accommodate the sort of tasks I'm most likely to do. So while I'm fascinated by the ASUS eee, for instance, the 7" screen loses. The larger 9" model rumored to be in the offing is much more attractive. The 10" screen onj the cancelled Palm Foleo might have been the sweet spot, save that Palm wore Treo blinders, and viewed the device as an accessory for the handheld, in what was almost a glorified docking station. Had it been a device that was useful stand-alone, and oh, yeah, if you had a Treo it would seamlessly integrate with it, it might have been a different matter.

Most UMPC's along with any sub or laptop running full windows has 2-4 hours battery life and that is not the best but usable. There are many people whom use other devices from blackberries, pda's, etc. that would buy a pocket jacket size laptop handheld yet still own a large laptop. I see hanhelds that could run full windows being a device to expand sales for companies like Toshiba and others whom sell laptops not reduce sales.

I have a Palm OS PDA that serves as PIM, ebook viewer, pocket reference on everything, writing tool, games device, image and video viewer, MP3 player, and a few other things, save cell phone.

For me, a UMPC needs to replace a laptop with a smaller, lighter device.

That zero sum thinking is enabling Linux and Apple a chance to get into the market for mobile computing and dig into future MS OS laptops. If you look at many of the new MIDS or UMPC type devices using Intels new chips some are now running Linux. I think MS and laptop companies should get their act together to create the next evolution to widen laptop sales via a handheld jacket version before they loose future sales to more competitors such as Apple and Linux devices.

Depending upon what you mean, that was supposed to be either a UMPC, or a handheld device like HPs iPAQ.
______
Dennis

[mobilesalesman]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Lack of a keyboard doesn't bother me. I don't need a built in keyboard. I need the ability to connect an external one. On my Palm OS device, I have an IR keyboard. For a UMPC, it might be Bluetooth or mini-USB. But whichever it is, it will be something approximating a full sized keyboard. I want something I can type on, and not a glorified thumbboard.

"Jacket sized" is another questionable attribute. What exactly does that mean? Something I can carry in a jacket pocket? If so, I'm not interested. The biggest variable in form factor for me is screen size. It need to be big enough to accommodate the sort of tasks I'm most likely to do. So while I'm fascinated by the ASUS eee, for instance, the 7" screen loses. The larger 9" model rumored to be in the offing is much more attractive. The 10" screen onj the cancelled Palm Foleo might have been the sweet spot, save that Palm wore Treo blinders, and viewed the device as an accessory for the handheld, in what was almost a glorified docking station. Had it been a device that was useful stand-alone, and oh, yeah, if you had a Treo it would seamlessly integrate with it, it might have been a different matter.

I have a Palm OS PDA that serves as PIM, ebook viewer, pocket reference on everything, writing tool, games device, image and video viewer, MP3 player, and a few other things, save cell phone.

For me, a UMPC needs to replace a laptop with a smaller, lighter device.

Depending upon what you mean, that was supposed to be either a UMPC, or a handheld device like HPs iPAQ.
______
Dennis

A PDA is a small shirt pocket device like a Palm or Pocket pc. Great for viewing information and simple things but not very good for real computer use. A UMPC thought they could bridge the gap between the PDA and a laptop but did not. What would bridge the gap is a device larger than a PDA but still small enough to be jacket size so that it has a full keyboard built in and can be a laptop replacement for those whom need more mobility.

The past Handheld HPC's had a good form factor and now that technology can enable them to have full windows that to me would be the ideal form factor to bridge the gap between the PDA and the laptop. Devices like the HP Jornada 720 or the Psion 5mx.



Samsung has made a very creative design but it is only sold in Korea, the sph p9200 which trifolds into a device still jacket size yet when opened provides a great keyboard. Too bad the US is only on 3g as this device is built for 4g http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-sph...ver-097876.php

[brecklundin]

I recently bought a Nokia N800 internet tablet and I have to say when combined with a battery powered mobile broadband router and a vastly improved web browser in OS2008 that the form factor is actually quite excellent. There is also the N810 with a slide out keyboard but I found that sort of awkward to use. Plus it negates using the built-in "kickstand" that tilts the devices up like an easel for easy viewing. Paired with an iGo BT 4-row keyboard it's quite useful and very mobile.

I was actually very and pleasantly surprised by just how useful it really is. While there are no real productivity apps as of yet the N800 can currently support up to 64gb of memory via it's two SD (SDHC compatible) card slots. And one can also boot into KDE which does have a LOT of apps.

I was a total skeptic and like I said I am using it constantly now...and with a VPN and/or VNC software I can 'run' any desktop app remotely from wherever am am thanks to EVDO and the mobile router.

[mobilesalesman]

Brecklundin,

Nokia has created some nice devices but they have always lacked a mainstream OS to really make them useful. Like the communicator cell phones. Those are great in that the larger design provides a keyboard but it uses the Sybian OS so that does not make it a great device to collaborate with mainstream users. I think there new devices are similar in that without a mainstrean OS it does not really work ideally. Mobile use especially here in the US is not always reliable nor cheap for continual internet so to me the device needs to have desktop OS and programs on the device.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I really enjoyed my Psion Mako while I had it (which could have been longer, but the hinge turned out to be a weak point in its design). I could have used that as a UMPC forever, and could have replaced a PDA with it, too.

Today, my biggest problem with evaluating UMPCs is finding one to evaluate. With the decline of the electronics chains like CompUSA, there are fewer places that carry electronics, and only a few of them allow you to do any creative test-driving of a device to see how it works. And I have little interest in paying over $800 on a device that I've never even turned on.

A local electronics store has moved into the old CompUSA space in Rockville, and I've had the chance to check out the Asus UMPC, as well as a few small laptops for comparison. But I haven't seen some of the others I've wanted to check out, so I'm taking my time before I pick anything.

So far, I've seen nothing particularly compelling about the UMPCs I have seen, other than the price of the EEE PC (and I'm still trying to figure out how they can justify charging you extra for a black case, as opposed to a white one!).

[mobilesalesman]

Originally Posted by MsAnthrope

Engadget recently wrote about Paul Allen's flipstart umpc at flipstart.com. It's the size of a paperback, built-in keyboard, usb ports, Sprint evdo ready. RAM at 512MB isn't great but CPU is 1.1 GHz. It comes with XP or Vista and runs MS compatible apps. Battery life is only 3-6 hours. The price was just halved to 699 USD. I don't know what that might portend. Wikipedia has more info and links to different reviews. This seems to fit the bill for a pocket-portable PC but you'd probably have to carry an extra battery.

Flipstart has the wrong form factor as it is too wide to be jacket pocket size and uses a thumb input. To me that is why sales were so weak they had to cut prices 50% to get rid of them. For a thumb input the OQO is better but both are not good enough for mainstream users to want to buy them. Most people would never want to thumb input into full windows programs, etc.

[mobilesalesman]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I really enjoyed my Psion Mako while I had it (which could have been longer, but the hinge turned out to be a weak point in its design). I could have used that as a UMPC forever, and could have replaced a PDA with it, too.

Today, my biggest problem with evaluating UMPCs is finding one to evaluate. With the decline of the electronics chains like CompUSA, there are fewer places that carry electronics, and only a few of them allow you to do any creative test-driving of a device to see how it works. And I have little interest in paying over $800 on a device that I've never even turned on.

A local electronics store has moved into the old CompUSA space in Rockville, and I've had the chance to check out the Asus UMPC, as well as a few small laptops for comparison. But I haven't seen some of the others I've wanted to check out, so I'm taking my time before I pick anything.

So far, I've seen nothing particularly compelling about the UMPCs I have seen, other than the price of the EEE PC (and I'm still trying to figure out how they can justify charging you extra for a black case, as opposed to a white one!).

Retail store purchasing people can see that the mass market has no interest in the current UMPC's thus far so you do not see them in that many retail stores. Again UMPC's need to create a productive need. People already have the choice of laptops and sub notebooks, and now some cheap subnotebook size UMPC's. What is and has been missing is a jacket size pocket laptop like the shape of a Psion. It is not a replacement of a laptop for everyone but there are millions whom could and would use that as the primary computer.

While there are people like "DMcCunney" and need a larger non jacket size device, that population is very small. After over a year only 350K of such devices worldwide have sold.

There is no one form factor for all but there is clearly a huge void for the people whom are very mobile whom would love not to carry a computer larger than their jacket pocket yet there is nothing offered at this time. I am amazed that the OEM's do not learn from mistakes as the UMPC's and MID's are just building similar devices of form factors already created in 2007 yet those had no real sales to speak of and they think something else is going to happen?

The world uses a touch type keyboard for inputing and working with full Windows so trying to change human behavior to something less desirable like a thumb input slider, or pen input has never ever worked. If they just used a form factor like a Psion which did have good sales and people enjoyed the ease of typing the UMPC's would have good sales. In the 1990's the devices like the Psion and HP Jornada had yearly sales over 2.3 million. Imagine now a device like that but with the power of a full laptop able to load any windows program? That would be a mobile sales persons dream machine.