A Fairer Fair Use?

I'd love to maintain the same rights with ebooks as I have with pbooks, but realistically it just ain't going to happen. Think of it this way.

Once upon a time, books were copied by scribes. Copyright wasn't necessary since copying a book was so expensive that it was rarely done.

Then came the printing press. All of a sudden, copying became easier. Anyone with a printing press and enough incentive to setup the press for a particular book could make a large number of copies. The notion of copyright eventually takes hold. Few people have to worry about it though since it's easy enough to track down and prosecute the owners of a press.

Over time the setup process became much easier and presses became more prolific. Eventually we would end up with devices like photocopiers, and they were everywhere. Readers started worrying about copyright, but not too much because enforcement wasn't a huge issue. Anyone with a big enough press and distribution channels were easy enough to track down, everyone else didn't matter.

Ebooks are the next step in that progression, and it is quite an astounding one. By their very nature, computers copy prolifically. The act of reading a book involves making many copies: from the main storage to RAM (in a more-or-less complete form) to the registers of the CPU (very fragmented) to the video memory (usually rasterized, but sometimes not). Now imagine transferring that book to someone else. We may talk about a "file transfer", but it is actually copying data across a wire. The only way to actually transfer the file is to add additional software that destroys the original data after it is used (which is what the move command does in your file manager). Factor in piracy, and we are clearly working in a very different realm than the pbook. Because of that, copyright is going to have to change.

[Belfaborac]

I expect to outright own any and every product I buy, as well as be able to do with it whatever I like (barring uploading it for general, unpaid consumption). That expectation will not change while I'm alive. Changes to copyright and sales models may well appear, but all a reduction in my rights as a consumer will accomplish is to drive me to the DarkNet. It really is that simple and I think it is equally simple for an awful lot of people out there.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Phogg

I have zero use for any software other than a browser that does not work without an internet connection.

We have seen this idea before.

Just that.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

I want my ebooks to work exactly the way paper books do: pay for it, receive it, do whatever I want with it. End of story.

Exactly. I have (dead tree) books that have been read repeatedly and given out to people and returned to me, for FREE. I want to still feel like I live in Canada when I purchase something. I don't want anyone, in any context looking over my "shoulder" to make sure I use it "their way."

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

I expect to outright own any and every product I buy, as well as be able to do with it whatever I like (barring uploading it for general, unpaid consumption). That expectation will not change while I'm alive. Changes to copyright and sales models may well appear, but all a reduction in my rights as a consumer will accomplish is to drive me to the DarkNet. It really is that simple and I think it is equally simple for an awful lot of people out there.

But you don't "own outright" even a paper book. You own the paper, the ink, and the glue that comprises the book, but you have no rights to reproduce the story contained in the book. The same is true for an eBook, the only difference being that there's no physical object involved.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But you don't "own outright" even a paper book. You own the paper, the ink, and the glue that comprises the book, but you have no rights to reproduce the story contained in the book. The same is true for an eBook, the only difference being that there's no physical object involved.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that there is a distinction between ownership of property and being granted a production monopoly by the state.

Or that one can have either without the other.

I do not have to be granted the right to manufactor and sell televisions to own one.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Phogg

You don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that there is a distinction between ownership of property and being granted a production monopoly by the state.

Or that one can have either without the other.

I do not have to be granted the right to manufactor and sell televisions to own one.

But you need to define what you mean when you talk about "owning" an eBook. As I said in my previous post, when you buy a paper book, all that you own is the physical medium on which the story is delivered; you don't own the story printed in the book. Take away that physical medium, and what is left to own?

[fjtorres]

The owner of the ebook is the publisher.
They sell access *licenses* but retain ownership.
Read the terms of service/licensing agreements.

All you buy/own is the right to download/read the ebook as many times as you wish.
Most people find that is a good-enough proxy for actual ownership; others don't.

(And DRM doesn't factor into it--those are simply the terms of the transaction.)

[Belfaborac]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But you need to define what you mean when you talk about "owning" an eBook.

I use the term "own" the way any ordinary person uses it in common parlance - the book, whether paper or bytes, is mine and therefore I can do what I want with it. I can read it, burn/delete it, lend it or give it away. It's really no more complicated than that. We're not talking about mass copying or manufacturing rights here, we're talking about ordinary usage.

That's the way I treat everything I've paid for and that's what I'll continue to do.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

I use the term "own" the way any ordinary person uses it in common parlance - the book, whether paper or bytes, is mine and therefore I can do what I want with it. I can read it, burn/delete it, lend it or give it away. It's really no more complicated than that. We're not talking about mass copying or manufacturing rights here, we're talking about ordinary usage.

That's the problem, though; you know what you mean when you say "own" and, indeed, at first glance, it seems simple and obvious - we all know what "own" means, don't we?

But it's when you start thinking about it more deeply that the problem arises, because HOW can you "lend" someone an immaterial object such as an e-book? An e-book is not a "thing" that you can pick up and give to someone. The only way to move it from one place to another is to make another copy of it, and that's where the trouble starts.

If you lend someone an e-book, you haven't lent them your book, you've created another copy, and given them that. Where there was one copy of the book, there are now two. Both you and your friend have a copy of the book. Is that lending at all, in the sense that the word is conventionally used?

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The owner of the ebook is the publisher.
They sell access *licenses* but retain ownership.
Read the terms of service/licensing agreements.

All you buy/own is the right to download/read the ebook as many times as you wish.
Most people find that is a good-enough proxy for actual ownership; others don't.

(And DRM doesn't factor into it--those are simply the terms of the transaction.)

As soon as there are some auth. servers or tokens involved your "as many times as you wish" changes to "as long as we don't pull the plug" and since companies have no real interest in their customers than their money this happens frequently enough. Thanks. As it's been said: we've seen it with games.
In cases of unfair use the rightholders are free to go the way everyone else mistreated is free to do.
That's what courts are for. I see no reason for being chained by them "just in case"

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But you need to define what you mean when you talk about "owning" an eBook. As I said in my previous post, when you buy a paper book, all that you own is the physical medium on which the story is delivered; you don't own the story printed in the book. Take away that physical medium, and what is left to own?

No Harry, neither I nor anyone else needs to "define" that ownership does not include the right to replicate for redistribution.

As I pointed out (and as you refuse to admit) there are already seperate terms for distribution rights and neither I nor anyone else need to explain that anymore than we need to explain that eating something is separate from cooking it. In both cases that is something the listener is generally able to comprehend on their own.

[Belfaborac]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's the problem, though; you know what you mean when you say "own" and, indeed, at first glance, it seems simple and obvious - we all know what "own" means, don't we?

Quite true, which is why I just attempted to expound on the meaning of the term as I used it. It could have broader and more wide ranging meanings, but like I said, and I think it was probably relatively clear to most from the outset, we're talking of owning and using something as the terms relate to ordinary customers and any other type of item.

But it's when you start thinking about it more deeply that the problem arises, because HOW can you "lend" someone an immaterial object such as an e-book?

Very simply by moving, rather than copying, the ebook to the device of the person borrowing the book. I confess to not being too familiar with any other OS than Windows, but I assume Unix/Linux/MacOS/whatever also have the option of using a move command rather than a copy command.

An e-book is not a "thing" that you can pick up and give to someone. The only way to move it from one place to another is to make another copy of it, and that's where the trouble starts.

This is clearly incorrect, as set out above. Admittedly the book could be retrieved regardless of being deleted, by using software designed for such a task, but then you wouldn't have moved it in the first place.

If you lend someone an e-book, you haven't lent them your book, you've created another copy, and given them that.

Once again...

Where there was one copy of the book, there are now two. Both you and your friend have a copy of the book. Is that lending at all, in the sense that the word is conventionally used?

And again...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Phogg

No Harry, neither I nor anyone else needs to "define" that ownership does not include the right to replicate for redistribution.

Unfortunately, though, when people say that they want to "lend" someone an eBook that is precisely the right that they are claiming for themselves.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

Very simply by moving, rather than copying, the ebook to the device of the person borrowing the book. I confess to not being too familiar with any other OS than Windows, but I assume Unix/Linux/MacOS/whatever also have the option of using a move command rather than a copy command.

That's true, and if only it were that simple and straightforward there wouldn't be a problem. But what about the copy in your "Library" at whatever bookstore you bought it from. Can you delete that? Many bookstores don't provide a mechanism for doing so.