The used pbook conundrum

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Scan it? Others have written that they scan books, but I don't understand why anyone would expend that much effort for anything but an important reference book, or extenuating circumstances.

Are you proposing that they memorize the contents of the books in order to transmit the information contained?

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Are you proposing that they memorize the contents of the books in order to transmit the information contained?

I don't follow. I'm just proposing that books be read.

[petrucci]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

After I bought my Sony Reader, I made the decision to attempt to buy all books as ebooks. It's just more convenient to read my Reader.

If I want a specific book (meaning it's not available at Smashwords) I typically find it on one or more ebook sites and then take a look at Amazon to see how much they're selling used pbooks for. Often, the book I want is available for less than a dollar + $3.99 shipping. So I have a choice: buy my preferred format for $9 to $20 or buy a like-new used paper book for $4 to $5.

It seems like about half the time anymore I end up with the paper.

I don't care that someone has already read it and it's a little banged up. And I do appreciate the lower price. But the irony Irritates me a little.

Interesting thread. There was a study in 2005 on the effect of used books on the new book market. Here is a link

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=584401

It concludes that only 16 percent of used book sales at Amazon cannibalize new book purchases.

With regards to the study you seem to be an outlier. I wonder if its results are still valid?

Obviously price can be a factor when you (the OP) are purchasing a particular book. Thus, in many instances you favor the paperback. Is it a factor when considering which one of several titles to purchase?

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by petrucci

It concludes that only 16 percent of used book sales at Amazon cannibalize new book purchases.

With regards to the study you seem to be an outlier. I wonder if its results are still valid?

Obviously price can be a factor when you (the OP) are purchasing a particular book. Thus, in many instances you favor the paperback. Is it a factor when considering which one of several titles to purchase?

The answer to your question is no. I usually go looking for a specific book that I read about or heard about. If I'm looking for a topic, not a specific book, I usually go to Smashwords for novels and O'Reilly for technical books.

But the study you cited made another error.

Our analysis suggests that used books are poor substitutes for new books for most of Amazon's customers. ... As a result only 16% of used book sales at Amazon cannibalize new book purchases. The remaining 84% of used book sales apparently would not have occurred at Amazon's new book prices.

.
I buy used pbooks at Amazon because they're cheap and extremely convenient. But I don't buy any ebooks at Amazon because Amazon only sells ebooks in their own proprietary format for their own proprietary ereader. No interest.

So pbooks sales do not cannibalize new book sales at Amazon for me, but not for the reason they considered.

[steven522]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Scan it? Others have written that they scan books, but I don't understand why anyone would expend that much effort for anything but an important reference book, or extenuating circumstances.

How about:
An author you love to read and reread has no books in the Public Domain.
The author's books are no longer being sold new and are not available as a retail ebook.
Your painstakingly collected set of books has already disappeared once.
As you come across the books again in flea markets, used book stores, and/or library sales, you make a scan of the book for storage on your ereader.
Now you can carry the books around everywhere and if your collection goes bye-bye again you at least have the digital copy.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

If I want a specific book (meaning it's not available at Smashwords) I typically find it on one or more ebook sites and then take a look at Amazon to see how much they're selling used pbooks for.

You could always buy a used ebook.

Oh wait, the Publishers are using DRM in order to eliminate the right of first sale... I forgot.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

You could always buy a used ebook.

Oh wait, the Publishers are using DRM in order to eliminate the right of first sale... I forgot.

They could actually use DRM to make selling used ebooks fair and legal (by transferring the keys to the new owner and removing yours). But they don't...

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by rkomar

They could actually use DRM to make selling used ebooks fair and legal (by transferring the keys to the new owner and removing yours). But they don't...

Selling used ebooks is already fair and legal. It's perfectly legal according to copyright law. There's no doubt that the fact that DRM prevents consumers from doing so was a deliberate decision. DRM is actually more effective at this sort of thing than it is at preventing "piracy".

Personally, I would suggest that "piracy" is just a red-herring and that the elimination of consumer rights that the industry doesn't like is the real purpose of DRM.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Selling used ebooks is already fair and legal. It's perfectly legal according to copyright law. There's no doubt that the fact that DRM prevents consumers from doing so was a deliberate decision. DRM is actually more effective at this sort of thing than it is at preventing "piracy".

Personally, I would suggest that "piracy" is just a red-herring and that the elimination of consumer rights that the industry doesn't like is the real purpose of DRM.

I agree with you 100% on what DRM is really for. I was just pointing out that it could be helpful to the consumer if it was allowed to be (by legitimizing the sale of used ebooks).

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

I don't follow. I'm just proposing that books be read.

That is all that anyone can ever propose, but what we further recommend is the free sharing of books that you have scanned.

Selling a used ebook is a bit of a strange idea to be sure, given that an ebook is never really used. But selling a disposable ereader loaded with an assortment of books that you have purchased, say an entire publishing house's catalog is another matter entirely. The market is insanely huge as you can surely imagine.

But how much should a third party charge for an ebook? Used mass market paperbacks are essentially free, you simply have to pay a shipping and handling fee, with ebooks there is no shipping fee, the seller can simply send you the file via email. As you can quickly imagine, the selling of used ebooks and possibly by extension new ebooks makes no sense at all.

A rapid proliferation of lending sites once DRM is lifted would be inevitable. ebooks would be collected onto servers, uploaded by those who have finished reading them and downloaded, one at a time, so as to be within the rights of first sale, by anyone who wished to. You would essentially be able to read anything.

Someone would have to of course purchase the books, and that someone would be you and I. But we can imagine sites setting up lending ratios, something like buy one book and get the option to download ten more. I would most likely be more willing to buy into that sort of scheme. Given that my pool of available book choices would in effect only be limited by the amount of users and books available in the lending network...

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

... But we can imagine sites setting up lending ratios, something like buy one book and get the option to download ten more. I would most likely be more willing to buy into that sort of scheme. ...

You've just laid out a good argument for why selling used ebooks is a silly concept which transparently circumvents paying for a new ebook.

O'Reilly, which many consider to be the top-of-the-line in computer books, sells all their ebooks with NO DRM, yet they sell them at the same high prices they sell their paper books for. Excellent stuff will fetch a high price, even when it's possible to steal it.

I think the free market can solve this fairly easily. Agency pricing should be outlawed. If a grocer can sell ketchup at a loss as a leader to get you in the store, then ebook sites should most definitely be allowed to sell big names of their choosing at a loss to draw you in too.

And as for DRM, there are several publishers which don't ever sell DRM. I always buy non-DRM books if I have a choice as I hope we all do. Even if you strip the DRM, you're encouraging the practice. We vote with out dollars (and euros, pounds and pesos).

If enough people vote that way, DRM will go. And that will put some downward pressure on prices to give less incentive to steal. At some point, as prices lower, there's no need to even think about selling used ebooks.

And why would booksellers lower prices? The curve. There exists some price at which they'll make maximum profit. And I don't think it's at the high end.

[charlesatan]

Originally Posted by twowheels

The problem is that ebooks ARE competing against used books. If we're stuck with DRM then we should at least get the right of first sale and be allowed to resell it via some online marketplace.

Hence the prevalent anti-DRM stance.

Originally Posted by twowheels

It seems that Amazon (and others) could easily allow us to put the book up for resale. I could finish reading the book, choose to resell it on their website. It'd go into a pool of available copies and become unavailable to me.

You lost me at "pool of available copies", which seems to applying a physical paradigm to eBooks. (It works in a library context, but not in a digital vendor framework where there is no "pool" to speak of.)

[twowheels]

Originally Posted by charlesatan

Hence the prevalent anti-DRM stance.

I'm anti DRM (for "purchased" content, not so much for explicitly rented content, except in so much that it limits playability via open-source software, etc), but not for that reason. I doubt that people would be reselling ebooks if there were no DRM. 99% of the people wouldn't be careful to ensure that they properly transferred ownership.

You lost me at "pool of available copies", which seems to applying a physical paradigm to eBooks. (It works in a library context, but not in a digital vendor framework where there is no "pool" to speak of.)

I'm too lazy to go back and look, but I believe that I said "artificially limiting availability" -- at least the words were in my mind while I typed. I agree that it's completely manufactured, but I was merely proposing a system that could work within the frameworks that we've had imposed upon us.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

You've just laid out a good argument for why selling used ebooks is a silly concept which transparently circumvents paying for a new ebook.

I think the free market can solve this fairly easily. Agency pricing should be outlawed. If a grocer can sell ketchup at a loss as a leader to get you in the store, then ebook sites should most definitely be allowed to sell big names of their choosing at a loss to draw you in too.

I am fairly certain that the concept of newness does not apply to the digital...

I must disagree with you concerning agency pricing, your metaphor is locked to the physical. There need be no retailer, there need only be a third party marketeer. However if an agent/creator wishes to sell their text for 15 dollars and a site like Amazon says "We are going to sell your text for 10 dollars and pay you the extra 5 dollars out of our own pocket", Well there's definitely not anything wrong with that. Is that what you meant?

Although, the agent/creator should also be able to say, "No, I do not want my book to be sold for 10 dollars, I wish it to be sold for 15." At that point the agent/creator should decide to either go with Amazon or sell the book themselves independently. There is no need to bring the legal system to bear...

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I must disagree with you concerning agency pricing, your metaphor is locked to the physical. ..
There is no need to bring the legal system to bear...

Go look at Amazon's page for the Kindle version of The Wind Through the Keyhole (Dark Tower) (No. 1 on NYBSL). Below the price it says "This price was set by the publisher." That's what my understanding of agency pricing is.

That is, the publisher/author not only says how many dollars you'll pay him per copy sold, but exactly what price you'll sell it for. You're not allowed to discount it to sell more than other sites. (Though I'm not sure what the punishment is.)

This is what I'm saying should be outlawed as an unfair business practice. It keeps ebook prices artificially high.

I vaguely remember reading that the motive has something to do with publishers' fears about ebooks canabalizing pbook sales. So there's a physical world connection for you.