How to grab readers?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Democracyman

...

The book I am reading is "The 38 most common problems fiction writing mistakes" (And how to avoid them) by Jack M. Bickham

I think it is pretty good.

Dan

Dan, Jack Bickham is a great teacher. He "pushes" the scene/sequel model in another book, probably that one as well. Good stuff.

[Democracyman]

I guess in writing you have two ways to go, you can blindly type and create a story, which is good training BUT you are learning as you do. Which means if you spend a year or two making that novel, it may be the kind no one will want to read, unless your lucky. Then starting over again, how many years until success? Success meaning a book that people actually enjoy reading.

The other way is trying to copy a successful style of writing that people would like to read. That means a kind of writing that grabs the reader at the first paragraph and hangs on to their heart through out to the end of the story. This second method will depend on knowing the craft while typing, having some sort of plan mapped out in the head or even on paper while the creative brain deals with the daily writing.

In any case I don't favor spending many years blindly typing stories until I figure out the correct method that people like to read, of course this may happen no matter my desire.

I figure there is no reason a beginner writer can't make a great novel that people would like to read if that is the goal and the writer puts in the effort to create this book (lots of editing and rewriting). The prior effort being studying successful writing skills in many books. This does not mean the first book will be really successful but it will mean the first novel won't be a pig that people can't read through.

You can write any way you want for yourself, but to create a book to be read you must follow a pattern that people like so they read your book.

I think in today's modern life people have far more distractions and entertainment options so writers must
be better than ever.

Dan

[Democracyman]

Dan, Jack Bickham is a great teacher. He "pushes" the scene/sequel model in another book, probably that one as well. Good stuff.

I plan when I can to pick up all his books on how to write. I think it a good place to start studying, also I am reading some
of Louis L'Amour books.

Dan

[kennyc]

Dan I truly believe that main thing (in any skill) is practice, practice, practice. As in Outliers - Gladwell repeatedly mentions the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.

and many say a author must write a million words in order to become publishable (I'm sure that is not true of all, much is about talent as well)

[bjones6416]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Agreed, maybe the saying should be more 'do no harm.'

I read a short story over the weekend and the first two sentences totally drove me batty, I wanted to throw my ereader across the room and actually skipped the story because after re-reading the sentences half-a dozen times they still made little sense.... I decided later to come back and found that after I got past those first two sentences the author actually settled down and wrote a nice narrative. UI'm convinced that those two sentences were written and re-written and re-written trying to create a killer opening.

In case you are wondering, the story is in the latest Pen/OHenry Awards 2012 - "Nothing Living Lives Alone" by Wendell Berry

You scared me, Kenny. For a minute I thought you were talking about MY opening lines.

(Wait. You're NOT talking about my opening lines, right?)

[kennyc]

Ha! No, yours are fine!

[Democracyman]

Dan I truly believe that main thing (in any skill) is practice, practice, practice. As in Outliers - Gladwell repeatedly mentions the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.

At 10 hours a day that would take 1000 years with no breaks.



May want to re think that rule a little.

I know with talent and work one can be successful at some date in the future, most likely. At least that is what our American culture teaches us, if it is true or not??

Even if I am not monetarily successful and I hope I am, I still don't want to produce a work that is such a pig so people would have to struggle to read through. For me first the study before the writing. However, I have done several years of writing already, over a decade pounding out posts on forums and emails, not exactly the same kind of writing, but hopefully it will translate some.

Dan

[orlok]

Originally Posted by Democracyman

At 10 hours a day that would take 1000 years with no breaks.

Actually, it's a little under 3 years. Good job you prefer literacy to Maths .

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by Democracyman

At 10 hours a day that would take 1000 DAYS with no breaks.


Dan

Fixed that for ya...

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Democracyman

[...]The other way is trying to copy a successful style of writing that people would like to read. That means a kind of writing that grabs the reader at the first paragraph and hangs on to their heart through out to the end of the story. This second method will depend on knowing the craft while typing, having some sort of plan mapped out in the head or even on paper while the creative brain deals with the daily writing. [...]

I think that such an approach to writing might be ... I was going to say laudable, but I don't think that's really the word I want. Optimistic, maybe. Presumptuous, perhaps. Unlikely and unrealistic anyway.

If it were simple, or even feasible, to quickly learn the supposed "tricks" involved successful writing, so that it was possible to produce the perfect book on demand - one that grabs the reader from the start to the end as you describe - then don't you think more people would be doing that? And that once a person had learned these tricks that every book would be a success?

One of the things that very definitely defines writing as an art, not a science, is the fact that success of the result is not guaranteed even if you do everything right, and that, being art, no one will agree on what was right anyway. Hell, even the definition of success is open to debate.

You do say that this method will "depend on knowing the craft while typing". It is this "knowing" that takes the time to achieve; it's what the 10000 hour apprenticeship stuff is all about. Even something as simple as touch-typing types a time to learn, the familiarity required to make acceptable standards of fiction writing burst forth from your keyboard is something much bigger.

[kennyc]

^^^^^^^^^ Exactly This ^^^^^^^^^^

I almost said this early in the thread. There are no tricks, just hard work and practice, practice, practice. And learning from mistakes.

[Democracyman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Democracyman View Post
At 10 hours a day that would take 1000 DAYS with no breaks.


Dan
Fixed that for ya...

One of those days, I think I left my memory stick at work with my book on it. Yikes. I have saved it but it was some time ago.

Have a lot of work done on a book about health.

Three to four years seem reasonable to me, I will do it if that is what it takes. I figure there are plenty of good writers that don't make it to the famous level and that is doable.

In any case, anything that could be done to shorten the time I will try to do. The feedback loop of writing a bigger work and putting it out there for a response is a pretty long one.

Dan

[dadioflex]

I came to writing because I thought I'd figured out the tricks, back when I was at school. La de da te da TAA DAA! Is how my early stories would sound now, if reduced to a string of incoherent noises - which would be preferable to reading them.

In a way I never wrote anything better than I did back then because I had no idea all the mistakes I was making.

Democracyman - you're trying to learn the secret behind the craft, and you won't find it in How To books. If you want to write slightly worse than Louis L'Amour, then keep reading Louis L'Amour - if you read enough, and you read them carefully enough, you should be able to write a pastiche quite readily. I've never read the guy, and I'm probably overdue because I love pulp, but if you want to write well, read well and pay attention to what you're reading.

When the need to write becomes a jagged pulse in your skull, you're ready. If you like what you've written, then you haven't learned anything yet. Go read some more.

I am a strong advocate of learning to write by only reading. Actually writing anything will lead to disappointment and shame. Possibly cooties.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by dadioflex

....

I am a strong advocate of learning to write by only reading. ...

I've been hearing that from a few angles lately and have to agree, though I do think some of the better how-to's can be useful.

I have to mention a couple of craft books I've been reading lately.

"Reading like a Writer" by Francine Prose
http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Like-W.../dp/0060777044
and
"The Making of a Story" by Alice LaPlante
http://www.amazon.com/The-Making-Sto...5262598&sr=1-1

both are full of examples/excerpts from well known stories, articles, essays and do a great job of approaching writing by close reading of great work.

[orlok]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I have to mention a couple of craft books I've been reading lately.

"Reading like a Writer" by Francine Prose
http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Like-W.../dp/0060777044

I particularly like the sound of this one. Thanks for the tip-off.

I'm currently reading Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass, which is excellent for provoking new ideas and changes you might want to make to your work, rather than trying to teach you how to write:
http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Breako...5262892&sr=1-1