PDF is dead.... Long live PDF

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

There is a whisper on the street that Adobe are bringing out a new ereader format

What whispers, on what street? Is this from a tech blog, a magazine, an Adobe press release, or insider rumour?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I don't believe so. Every device which can load books via desktop ADE also uses Adobe's firmware on the device itself.

Eg, attached is the "legal" page from my Pocketbook 360. Note the reference to "Adobe Reader Mobile software".

And here's my BeBook Neo:

I'm sure that other people can post similar screens from other devices if you need more evidence that Adobe Reader Mobile software is very widely licensed indeed. Indeed, to the best of my knowledge, it's used by every reader manufacturer who supports ePub.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I don't believe so. Every device which can load books via desktop ADE also uses Adobe's firmware on the device itself.

Eg, attached is the "legal" page from my Pocketbook 360. Note the reference to "Adobe Reader Mobile software".

OK, I'll take your word for it.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

What whispers, on what street? Is this from a tech blog, a magazine, an Adobe press release, or insider rumour?

It's from an insider and that's all I can say. I probably shouldn't have started this thread until the information was more public.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

And here's my BeBook Neo:

I'm sure that other people can post similar screens from other devices if you need more evidence that Adobe Reader Mobile software is very widely licensed indeed. Indeed, to the best of my knowledge, it's used by every reader manufacturer who supports ePub.

That's ARM not ADE.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

That's ARM not ADE.

Yes, I said in my initial post that Adobe had changed the name of it. When it first appeared (in the Sony PRS-505) they used to call the version that was on the portable device "ADE" too, as well as the desktop software. They've now renamed it to "Adobe Reader Mobile". The point is, though, that every device manufacturer who supports ePub pays a hefty annual licence fee to Adobe for it. ePub is a cash cow for Adobe.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, I said in my initial post that Adobe had changed the name of it. When it first appeared (in the Sony PRS-505) they used to call the version that was on the portable device "ADE" too, as well as the desktop software. They've now renamed it to "Adobe Reader Mobile". The point is, though, that every device manufacturer who supports ePub pays a hefty annual licence fee to Adobe for it. ePub is a cash cow for Adobe.

Sorry, I didn't see that bit. If I could just refresh the original post which was: If/when this new format comes into being what features would you like it to have?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Sorry, I didn't see that bit. If I could just refresh the original post which was: If/when this new format comes into being what features would you like it to have?

I don't think Adobe need a new format at all. What I'd like to see them do is extend ADE/ARM to support the new ePub 3 standard. That would provide a vast array of new capabilities.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think Adobe need a new format at all. What I'd like to see them do is extend ADE/ARM to support the new ePub 3 standard. That would provide a vast array of new capabilities.

We realise Harry that you don't think they need a new format even taking into account Mr. Ploppy's comments which was largely ignored. But. If by some magical wave of a wand a new format was in the offing, what features would you like it to have? A spell checker maybe, or a coffee machine?

[HarryT]

I'd like it to have a similar range of capabilities to that offered by ePub 3, but I have to ask why any company in its right mind would wish to bring out a new standard when they already dominate the market with the existing open standard? I'm sorry, but it just makes no sense at all. What do you think would be the benefit of such a move?

[Penforhire]

I'd much rather see more effort made to make Epub the standard for e-books. Format fragmentation is not good for the market as a whole. It is a force that slows the pie from growing as fast as it could.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

It's from an insider and that's all I can say. I probably shouldn't have started this thread until the information was more public.

Insider is fine; just checking on source. Knowing it's an insider means we can understand that the concept may be very nebulous--Adobe may not have specific plans yet, or they might but the info being released might be deliberately vague.

I must agree with Harry that there's no reason to make a format "more like mobi," considering its limitations when compared to ePub. While simpler formats have been and could be commercially successful, I believe that it could only compete *today* if it were easy to convert to & from ePub, and if ePubs converted to the new format didn't get scrambled or lose data, regardless of how complex they are.

I'm not sure what features would be relevant to the discussion. Obviously, a good ebook format should allow common types of formatting: bold, italic, underlining; a few different font sizes; left, right, centered & justified text; indents, super & subscript, and so on.

Font embedding may be necessary to be competitive. Image placement control, also; text needs to be able to wrap close to the image at least. Indexed locations would be good. Good metadata support. I'm sure there's a long list of other features & formatting options that would be necessary.

The real issue wouldn't be how good the format is, but what software it takes to read, edit & create it, and how widespread support for that would be. A new ebook format released like PDF originally was--needing proprietary software to read, later loosened to proprietary software to create--would bomb horribly; there are too many open-source options available. A new ebook format that had widely open support (whether or not it's technically proprietary) could compete--but would quickly be competing with amateur efforts.

There's not much ePub doesn't do that we'd want from ebooks. (I can think of a few things, but I doubt that's what Adobe's going to focus on.) There are plenty of devices that don't support all that ePub can do; no new format is going to fix that problem.

Unless Adobe's going to offer its software as an easy "reflash your kindle to this, and you can read our files AND still keep your connection with your Amazon account!"... it's not likely to get very far.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I'd much rather see more effort made to make Epub the standard for e-books. Format fragmentation is not good for the market as a whole. It is a force that slows the pie from growing as fast as it could.

You mean like the old VHS x Betamax debacle. Only problem with that one was the best system lost.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Insider is fine; just checking on source. Knowing it's an insider means we can understand that the concept may be very nebulous--Adobe may not have specific plans yet, or they might but the info being released might be deliberately vague.

I must agree with Harry that there's no reason to make a format "more like mobi," considering its limitations when compared to ePub. While simpler formats have been and could be commercially successful, I believe that it could only compete *today* if it were easy to convert to & from ePub, and if ePubs converted to the new format didn't get scrambled or lose data, regardless of how complex they are.

I'm not sure what features would be relevant to the discussion. Obviously, a good ebook format should allow common types of formatting: bold, italic, underlining; a few different font sizes; left, right, centered & justified text; indents, super & subscript, and so on.

Font embedding may be necessary to be competitive. Image placement control, also; text needs to be able to wrap close to the image at least. Indexed locations would be good. Good metadata support. I'm sure there's a long list of other features & formatting options that would be necessary.

The real issue wouldn't be how good the format is, but what software it takes to read, edit & create it, and how widespread support for that would be. A new ebook format released like PDF originally was--needing proprietary software to read, later loosened to proprietary software to create--would bomb horribly; there are too many open-source options available. A new ebook format that had widely open support (whether or not it's technically proprietary) could compete--but would quickly be competing with amateur efforts.

There's not much ePub doesn't do that we'd want from ebooks. (I can think of a few things, but I doubt that's what Adobe's going to focus on.) There are plenty of devices that don't support all that ePub can do; no new format is going to fix that problem.

Unless Adobe's going to offer its software as an easy "reflash your kindle to this, and you can read our files AND still keep your connection with your Amazon account!"... it's not likely to get very far.

I think we all agree that epub is the better format, but Kindle sales are rocking the market, so maybe something that encompasses both camps would be preferable for them. I think however, their focus is on readers and not writers.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

I think we all agree that epub is the better format, but Kindle sales are rocking the market, so maybe something that encompasses both camps would be preferable for them. I think however, their focus is on readers and not writers.

Kindle sales are great because Amazon's marketing system is great--the format itself isn't winning any converts.

A format that's readable as .mobi would be useful (I can't believe I'm saying this... just what we need, more different filetypes with the same extension), but has the problem of not being readable on nooks, sony readers, or a few other types. Ideal, of course, would be a filetype that was recognized as .mobi by kindles and as .epub by other readers... but I think that's beyond Adobe to create, because they can't control what the other companies' software will recognize, other than by file extension.

Amazon has resisted all attempts to get Kindles to read epub; they won't be altering their firmware to adapt to a new format. (At least, not unless Adobe brings something heavy to the table, which I don't see happening.)

While there's plenty of market for new *software* to deal with ebooks, especially for better firmware for ereaders, a new *format* is fighting an uphill battle, starting with "what does it do that epub doesn't?"

Options include:

• Headers & footers (I think epub can support this but most software doesn't display them)
• Page numbers (needs to vary by device)
• Indexed locations, so an index for nonfic could be easily built
• Dictionary support/connection (although most devices seem to have figured out methods for this outside the ebook format)
• Better image options: zoom, indexing, res/size display, etc.
• More?