Academic ebooks can succeed but publishers must play their part

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by taustin

The particular example was one in which some students had ebook readers.



What "from memory"?

"OK, class, let's look at page 676." "My page numbers are different, can you get me some term to search for on that page?" "OK, search for 'binary explosives.'" "OK, got it."

What is so difficult about that?



What does it matter what device they have? Are there any ebook readers on the market today that do not have a full-text search function?

That could work, if the professor went along. But it's a one-way street - people with pbooks can give the e-book reader a search term...but how does the e-book reader indicate a location so someone with a pbook?

The particular issue here was the claim that electronic textbooks are useless because they have different page numbers. That simply isn't true. They don't have the same page numbers, but they have superior search abilities that make them at least as fast to find what you're looking for when the professor, or another student, has the paper version open to the page in question in front of them and can quote a passage unique enough to search for.

But, again, this only works in one direction.

It has to do with professors not wanting to have to learn new ways to do old things.

Those stupid lazy profs. So much dumber than 20-year old undergrads who understand *everything.*

And yes, it will change, as more and more professors realize they can get a (much bigger) cut of the billions spent on textbooks every year, while making student nearly worship them for lowering prices substantially.

Sure it will. Just like e-books are so much cheaper than the equivalent paper book.

Electronic textbooks are the future; nobody but textbook publishers thinkgs otherwise. Professors who don't keep up will find their classes less and less popular, and ultimately, the means they get paid less.

Yes, e-books are the future. But the idea that professors are somehow not "keeping up" is just arrogant and wrong. Right now, there's nothing to keep up with...and when electronic academic texts are common, professors will be the ones leading.

And the last sentence makes me wonder if you've ever even taken a college class.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

That could work, if the professor went along. But it's a one-way street - people with pbooks can give the e-book reader a search term...but how does the e-book reader indicate a location so someone with a pbook?

But, again, this only works in one direction.

So? If there's nobody in the class with a paper version, what's the problem? Because, by definition, that means the professor doesn't have a paper version either, and will, therefore, by definition, not be giving out page numbers from the paper edition.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Those stupid lazy profs. So much dumber than 20-year old undergrads who understand *everything.*

Sarcasm won't make you right. It will, however, convince me you have no further points to make.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

And the last sentence makes me wonder if you've ever even taken a college class.

And insults will convince me that even if you have something further to say, it's not worth the bother to read it.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by taustin

So? If there's nobody in the class with a paper version, what's the problem? Because, by definition, that means the professor doesn't have a paper version either, and will, therefore, by definition, not be giving out page numbers from the paper edition.

The issue is classes with mixed e-books and paper books. The examples spoke to how people with paper books could share their place with e-book users, but neglected the fact that people with e-books couldn't do the same.

Sarcasm won't make you right. It will, however, convince me you have no further points to make.

If you make outrageous, insulting, and unfounded statements, you are going to get called on them.

[/quote]

And insults will convince me that even if you have something further to say, it's not worth the bother to read it.[/QUOTE]
Do you really think that professors are paid by the student? Or that students would skip taking required classes because of the textbook? And that the professor or university would care? Or that the professor would be penalized financially for this? Because none of those things are remotely true in the real world, or even in academia. I had classes where the textbooks were all on reserve in the library, meaning that they couldn't be checked out at all.

[emellaich]

Taustin,

On my readers the search function is next to useless. It doesn't seem to recognize, ANDs or quote marks. Multiple word searches act like ORs. There are definitely no advanced operators or regexp.

Furthermore, when I want to 'flip' back and forth between pages to skim and find something it just doesn't work quickly. In paper books, the chapter number is often at the bottom or top of the page. I can open the book in the middle, see the chapter number and flip a bunch of pages to the left and right and quickly get to the correct chapter. When it is section numbered, the sections start with the chapter number also.

With ebooks navigating virtual keyboards is slow, for me at least. And, if the table of contents work, that's great, but that just gets me to the start of the chapter, and its much slower to leaf through to a particular page. However, indexes on ebooks aren't so great.

Bottom line, is that for textbook navigation I would want to rethink the paradigm. No need to stick with the old outdated ways of doing things. I can think of a couple of alternatives already. If we optimize for ebooks, I think we can be better than paper. If we try to emulate something that we aren't (paper) we will always be a little short of the pure paper experience.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by emellaich

On my readers the search function is next to useless. It doesn't seem to recognize, ANDs or quote marks. Multiple word searches act like ORs. There are definitely no advanced operators or regexp.

You are doing it wrong. Why would you need to search for multiple words? All you have to do is pick the word that has the smallest chance of recurring in the text and search for it.

[hidari]

better yet switch the ebook to PDF format...searchable and open it with Adobe or Foxit and search for the quote or phrase on your computer...much faster and easier. I would just write the key phrase and roughly where it is in the book....and then search for the quotes later in the week in PDF format.... before writing my research paper....

[Krystl]

You are correct, Sil. My post clearly stated the difference in fields for that very reason. I completely agree with you. Especially since many professors in sciences also use screen projections for complete visibility to all, etc. in both conferences and in lectures. Figures are usually numbered as well as found in subsections. I actually mentioned sectioning and APA, MLA, etc. research standards which differ in fields and in cultures (yes, nationalities have different writing styles in scientific fields, too.) Not all fields work that way, nor would they function in that manner.

Emmelliach has a very good point: the search function is not at all easy for literary texts. Perhaps you never read novels for pleasure? I actually tested this before I posted using Pride and Prejudice (why I used it as an example in my first post), as well as a non-fiction textbook to see the validity of the article. (I did not have a scientific text, but I imagine searching the section number would be quite efficient.)

Emmelliach: I would love to hear more of your ideas, especially as concerns humanities texts. You have made me most curious.

Hidari: that is an excellent solution. If only ereaders always rendered pdfs well. When they do, you are correct--the best of both worlds and a great compromise for the present and near future. I hear that is a major strength of using tablets in academics for pdf rendering and notations. Other ideas?

Andrew: I agree completely--enough said. If you return to this post, I hope you read this. (And I got what you said ) Fighting such a losing battle--you won in my eyes.

Tausin: You seem to intentionally be dissecting my post to falsly rebuttal leaving out the basic facts of the article or my reasoning solely to be correct without thinking things through just to counter. Poor academic work indeed.

I referred to pcs as they are electronic and the search function pre-dates the ereader. Fact.

Searching in a philosophy or literature class (the example was of a mixed media class by a philosophy professor) makes searching for a specific word difficult. Perhaps those getting so self. "Please go to soandso's arguement page soandso". It is quite common and even different versions allow you to scan. These entries do not necessarily have a specific word to search for. Fact.

And I did state that the problem was not the ebook in general, rather the fact that not all ebooks have page numbers matching the pb is. And even a general idea would be acceptable. I did not state the page number must match perfectly.

I am convinced you have forgotten the fact that not everybody studies "binary explosives" but also literature. When giving a lecture in humanities, page numbers are still also used. And yes, there are actual syllabuses/book lists with the editions used in the course. Fact.

Reality is: not all students have ereaders and probably won't any time soon. Fact.

This is not the fault nor responsibility of the students or professors nor will professors be worshipped anytime soon. (And for my part, I am a teacher and I have enthusiastically recommended ereaders to my students--but it is not my decision, I have no say in whether students use it and I am required to have pb.) Fact.

I find you overly defensive and unable to accept that you do not have all the answers or others make valid points. You are also insulting to the teaching profession, assuming you know more about what they should be doing than they do. Ereaders are still fairly new and it will take time for it to become the primary teaching method. It is not the professor's problem when there are no page numbers on the students' texts; nor is it the students' fault.

Your writing style has not promoted this discussion at all--in fact, I find it rather insulting to communicate with you. You are argumentative and unwilling to accept that there are valid other points of view. Not very professionally academic. I agree with Andrew on this one.

I will leave this conversation now to the arrogant and misguided. It could have been interesting to "problem solve" and compare various fields needs, wants, etc. I was quite looking forward to it. However, unfortunately, reaming people for noticing weaknesses and shortcomings here is preferable. The tone of this conversation is most disturbing and I do not want to be further subjected to this.

True scholars open their minds to both strengths and weaknesses.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Krystl

You are correct, Sil. My post clearly stated the difference in fields for that very reason. I completely agree with you. Especially since many professors in sciences also use screen projections for complete visibility to all, etc. in both conferences and in lectures. Figures are usually numbered as well as found in subsections. I actually mentioned sectioning and APA, MLA, etc. research standards which differ in fields and in cultures (yes, nationalities have different writing styles in scientific fields, too.) Not all fields work that way, nor would they function in that manner.

But they can work this way. In ancient times they were numbering the verses. You could at least count the paragraphs now, the way that legal documents are done. Anything that is designed to serve as reference will be organized in a way that can be easily referenced.

Originally Posted by Krystl

Emmelliach has a very good point: the search function is not at all easy for literary texts. Perhaps you never read novels for pleasure? I actually tested this before I posted using Pride and Prejudice (why I used it as an example in my first post), as well as a non-fiction textbook to see the validity of the article. (I did not have a scientific text, but I imagine searching the section number would be quite efficient.)

I have no reason to search a text that I am reading for pleasure, and since you seem offended by other people's comments I would like to point out that "Perhaps you never read novels for pleasure?" sounds condescending.

[Little.Egret]

The kind of book being discussed has footnotes so "the paragraph with footnote 103" works and it works both from and to a printed edition. This depends on footnote or reference style but "the section after "Turing 1948a" also works

Legal texts often use paragraph numbers 12.16.02 - the style dates from when updates replaced pages and whole chapters so the page number was useless.

And if the professor wasn't a Luddite he could arrange to distribute electronic book marks.

PDFs of course have actual page numbers.

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

[snip]

I have no reason to search a text that I am reading for pleasure

Search can be quite handy, especially with a Russian novel (VBG) and I have often forgotten who "Suzanne" is when she hasn't been around for five chapters so a search can help there too.

And authors have been known to blog "what Dukes were mentioned in previous parts of the series ?"

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

Search can be quite handy, especially with a Russian novel (VBG) and I have often forgotten who "Suzanne" is when she hasn't been around for five chapters so a search can help there too.

And authors have been known to blog "what Dukes were mentioned in previous parts of the series ?"

I've never had this problem, and stopping to search for something would break the flow of the story.

[hidari]

@Krystl: I am sure Tablets are better than ebook readers...but I bike everywhere between universities for my work. So, an ereader to bookmark the quote pages and a mini notebook to mark the page number and key words of the quote were enough for me when I did a Masters... Plus, I just prefer reading on eink Screens... maybe technically not a difference..but no back light is a plus in my opinion....