Dear Penguin Books: Library users are not freeloaders!

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by andym

Thanks. A quick Google search suggests that Penguin have pulled these books due to alleged concerns about security. I suspect that this is BS but, so far as I can see they haven't accused anyone of being a freeloader.

I suspect they're more concerned about having a competitor (Amazon) control the lending on their (Amazon's) servers and thereby have access to all that lending data. They didn't give a hoot when it was all epubs and pdfs through ADE.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by andym

Thanks. A quick Google search suggests that Penguin have pulled these books due to alleged concerns about security. I suspect that this is BS but, so far as I can see they haven't accused anyone of being a freeloader.

It was late at night and I wish I had had the foresight to link and quote when I posted my little grumble that started this thread.

One of the articles I read implied that penguin didn't like how "easy it was to just download a library book", and that people would just keep doing that and not buy books.

The "freeloader" was definitely implied even if it wasn't said.

The thing is, my e-reading experience at the library is JUST like with paper books. If a book is popular, I still have to wait for it. Just like with a printed book. The only difference is when it's a day like today, icy roads, buses not running, and my hold comes in, I can actually use it instead of risking my life in a blizzard.

Printed books are also "instant". I hope they can work out a way that they can license e-books in the future to libraries. E-reading is part of our future. People are going to expect to borrow e-books. (especially homebound and handicapped)

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

One of the articles I read implied that penguin didn't like how "easy it was to just download a library book", and that people would just keep doing that and not buy books.

Hey, that's me

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by CJJ

I know, I bought "The Spy That Came in From The Cold" by John Le Carre' ebook several weeks ago. I in fact had pre-ordered it. Penguin seems to have a lock on these. I want to read more, and there are other ebooks of his. But now I'm thinking used book store. Would have been happy to pay for the ebooks, but not anymore.

Library users are not freeloaders!

The BC libary has that book. And nine other John le Carré books.

[dkb]

I think libraries are important. I've always been a reader. But while in school, I didn't buy books, I got them from the library. I didn't start buying books until I started working. I really feel that if it weren't for the library, I wouldn't have become a reader.

My parents worked and didn't take me to the library. I walked or rode my bike. I don't think that's an option these days. My local library is in an area without sidewalks or bike lanes. Getting there for most would involve crossing roads and streets where walking or riding a bike would not be safe or practical.

Ebooks make the library more accessible. It encourages reading. Once people get in the habit of reading again, they'll start buying books. There's still enough friction with getting ebooks from the library, especially if they lower prices and get rid of DRM.

I admit that I've bought less books since I started getting ebooks from the library, but it was higher prices that sent me there. Keeping out new books won't stop me from using the library or make me start buying again. It will just mean that I start reading older books that the library already has, and I will continue to wait for bargains, or try self-published books. And if I really must have that best seller, I'll buy a used copy.

[CJJ]

Originally Posted by The Terminator

The BC libary has that book. And nine other John le Carré books.

Hmmm... well, I do have relatives in Canada.

[Tony1988]

I guess the whole freeloader qustion is based on a couple of things.

How many people checked out books from the library as opposed to buying BEFORE ebooks??
I am guessing more people bought.(and still do i am sure)

How many physical copies of a new release did librarys have BEFORE ebooks??
I am guessing less.

How many people were on a waiting list for a physical copy?? I doubt over 200.

See where this is going?? If libraries have more copies of a new book. More people than ever on waiting lists for these new books. Penguin and many publishers are scared of losing sales. Yes the library is paying to keep these digital copies. But how much sales is it taking away?? How many people would have bought the book BEFORE ebooks or before libraires started carrying so many copies of the books.

I do understand that there are more "avid" readers out there right now because of ereaders. So how many of the waiting list people are before ereader readers and how many jumped on the ereader boom and are now readers?

How many of these "new" readers are just riding the fad and will fade out? Do they ever buy the ebooks?
(yes there are some people who have ereaders that dont want to buy the ebooks they just them just for freebies)

I also understand that ebooks sales are up but physical sales are way down also. How much of the physical sales lost was due to people getting ereaders and waiting for a copy of an ebook to become available from the library??

How much do ebooks sales and physical book sales add up?? Is it more or less from previous years sales??

These are things to ponder. Because they could affect a publishers sales postively or negatively in the future.

So in a way I can understand Penguins concerns. Are people freeloaders when it comes to ebooks??? Eh guess that depends on your outlook. Heres the definition:
free·load·er/ˈfrēˌlōdər/Noun: A person who takes advantage of others' generosity without giving anything in return.

I guess a better term is borrowloaders because the publishers are getting some compensation from the library.

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by Gladtobemom

What we "wish" is that we could buy a group of readers and have a family account for them all that would let us read all formats on Eink screen. So far, that's just not possible.

You can do that today, but it requires extra effort on managing your personal library of books. You need to strip DRM, import into Calibre, and convert formats as needed. It actually takes very little extra time or effort, and is my normal workflow for a new book, making it available to everyone in the house in both MOBI and ePub formats.

Originally Posted by Gladtobemom

We aren't freeloaders because we support the library. We support it with our patronage, our time (we do volunteer), our taxes, and our votes. The library does pay for books.

I agree, and we use our BC Library system a lot.

Originally Posted by Gladtobemom

The publishing industry is going through some changes. I hope that it will mean epublishers like Baen will facilitate the development of authors and bring the authors closer to their audiences. If it means that Amazon is going to be able to reach into my ebook-shelf at will and keep track of it . . . then that's evil.
:sigh:

I like Baen as well, and buy a lot of their books. But I don't get this concern about Amazon reaching onto my ebook-shelf. They don't, and couldn't care less what books I've side-loaded or where they came from.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I support my library through taxes. There are many books I wouldn't pay $10 in paper or e-format. There are many books I would pay $10 for in paper or e-format. Penguin has basically decided for me that if I'm unsure of an author and they only publish in e-book format, then I'll never try that author and never potentially buy other titles of that author in the future. It's your business plan Penguin do what you want and it's my reading plan and I will do what I want with the money I spend on books. Sayonara Penguin and all other publishers that skip libraries.

[speakingtohe]

it seems to me that publishers find ebooks both profitable and frightening. People can buy more books than before if storage is a significant factor, which it is to me.

People can acquire books easier than ever before from libraries in many places. This may help or hinder sales in the long term, no-one really knows at present. IMO things will chug along about the same, but I can't say I know this.

It may be a good time for the library system to try and find a better model of compensating authors/publishers. I don't see this as happening as it would require a massive effort and coordination between different library systems.

In BC, Canada, where we have a great provincial ebook library, some libraries are starting to splinter off already.

I have donated to the library in the past through book sales (given them some extra which is the only way I know how), and while not a donation, have paid quite a few fines.

I would actually welcome a donation link where I could pay by credit card online as one does fines. Maybe one exists and I have by seen it?

I would be even happier if I could specify where part (30%?) of my donation was spent, favorite authors, mystery fiction, books not already in catalog etc. Ebooks etc.

Libraries must be missing the fines that are not being paid because ebooks are automatically returned. I know in my case it is significant to me not to have to pay them due to forgetfulness or misplacing a book for a time.

Perhaps publishers are missing the purchases that would be made with the fines paid on lost material. Probably not significant to publishers, but may be.

Helen

[spindlegirl]

Prior to e-readers I borrowed lots of printed books from the library, all the time.

Stuff that was not there, I put on hold. I know that our culture isn't THAT afraid of "waiting", I get sick of the articles that imply that waiting for a hold is the worst. thing. ever. that can possibly befall some poor tortured soul. I wait weeks for a book, paper or ebook. When it comes, I read it.

Each user has a limit to how many e-books can be checked out at one time. We can set our default loan period for a week to three weeks. I have mine set to two weeks, but amend as needed. Some fast reads really only need a week, but huge books I need all 3, and I know how to return early in any event.

I don't consider myself a freeloader. The public library is just that, public. Anyone who has proof of address can get a card and use it. Also as a taxpaying citizen, and as someone who has from time to time acquired fines for late returns, I support our library equally with everyone else. I hold this institution in the highest honor and respect and always have. Our children likewise, have grown up with this attitude. They take great care of borrowed items, and love the books and cds and videos they can use.

Our newer libraries are less old-fashioned library like where hushed tones are king, and more like a community center where there are themes, lectures, open learning, and all kinds of cool things going on. Sometimes a band or a dance will be on for a culture week. The one near us has a huge huge area with toys and play area where kids can play and the parents can sit around in comfortable chairs watching their children. When our kids were younger this was great.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

I guess the whole freeloader qustion is based on a couple of things.

How many people checked out books from the library as opposed to buying BEFORE ebooks??
I am guessing more people bought.(and still do i am sure)

Ehhh, evaluating it by "how many people" may not be the best statistic. People who buy a lot of books are often also high-volume library users, and whether they buy or not may depend more on their financial means than their preferences. I was a very high volume reader but nearly exclusive library borrower before I graduated from college, for example.[/quote]

How many physical copies of a new release did librarys have BEFORE ebooks??
I am guessing less.


How many people were on a waiting list for a physical copy?? I doubt over 200.

This is hard to quantify. I KNOW I regularly see 7-8 copies of one bestsellers sitting on the hardcover shelf at one library branch in my town (and I would expect that to be reproduced in every large branch in this county). Meanwhile, the digital consortion that serves my entire STATE may have 15-20 copies of a popular bestseller in ebook. Yes, there may be 200 people on the wait list, but they're churning through pretty fast and that consortium covers a much larger population than my county library system.

See where this is going?? If libraries have more copies of a new book. More people than ever on waiting lists for these new books. Penguin and many publishers are scared of losing sales. Yes the library is paying to keep these digital copies. But how much sales is it taking away?? How many people would have bought the book BEFORE ebooks or before libraires started carrying so many copies of the books.

I nearly always get the top bestsellers (King, Roberts, etc) from libraries (digital or hardcopy) for 2 reasons:

1) the library always buys them in bulk. I can guarantee once the original run is done, 6-12 months after release, they will be reliably available on the shelves (for digital I just put my name in and get in line).

2) I can stand to wait to read top bestsellers, it's the favorite authors I purchase, and there isn't as much overlap there as you'd think.

I do understand that there are more "avid" readers out there right now because of ereaders. So how many of the waiting list people are before ereader readers and how many jumped on the ereader boom and are now readers?

Even the new "avid" readers tend not to be on the scale of the old "avid" readers. My husband might have gone from 1-9 books/year to 20-30 books/year but I read hundreds of books/year.

I also understand that ebooks sales are up but physical sales are way down also. How much of the physical sales lost was due to people getting ereaders and waiting for a copy of an ebook to become available from the library??

This may actually have more to do with the economy than preferences. Ebooks are cheaper than hardcovers, but library loans are free.

And anyone who thinks that library loans on Overdrive are "frictionless" are welcome to try to browse for a book they might like on Overdrive* and then check it out as an epub/pdf and tell me all about the relative frictionlessness of it all


* of interest in my experience with Overdrive at the Md and DC libraries: categories include "Fantasy", "Science Fiction and Fantasy", and "Science Fiction", all with interlapping listings; no way to refine category searching; listings without plot descriptions of any sort, or nearly meaningless plot descriptions; search can only filter one format at a time (so you need to do separate searches for pdfs and epubs, unless you allow every format and end up with audiobook listings too); only 10-25 hits per page; series without all the volumes; ease of selecting the wrong format; limits on number of holds;d long waitlist times; incredible slowness especially when loading and refreshing wishlists; random problems with ADE when downloading/transferring especially to a full ereader; oh, I could go on. Searches on specific titles/authors are much better, but I'm a browser by nature. Kindle lending is easier at the download end but the browsing experience is the same.

[CJJ]

It's been an interesting discussion.

As always, follow the $

1. I believe publishers have, from the beginning, worried not only about how they would make money in the digital age and protect themselves from piracy but how they could increase their profits over print books. A cartoon Wolf with dollar signs in its eyes comes to mind but that is perhaps an extreme imagination. At any rate all of their decisions and posturing seem to support that view.

2. Publishers feel that Libraries are fair game because digital books are still perceived as something that only the well-off are pursuing. If someone is willing to spend a $100 just to be in the game, that separates them economically from those who wont or can't. So I think publishers care very little if they piss off Library patrons. They don't perceive them as potential customers.

Penguin and their like want to profit on the resurgence of reading thanks to ereaders. I can only hope that Random House's decision not assume a stance of economic prejudice leads to increased sales and decreased piracy. If this happens the other publishers will be falling all over themselves in their rush back into public libraries .

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by Tony1988

How many physical copies of a new release did librarys have BEFORE ebooks??
I am guessing less.

How many people were on a waiting list for a physical copy?? I doubt over 200.

I can only speak for my library system (Nashville Metro). For paper books, popular new releases have several (sometimes 100) copies that are initially distributed to the branches and are then moved around the county system as demand (and returns) dictated. These copies are assigned a "home branch" and so would show up in the calatog something like this:

Bellevue The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo due on 2/27/12 + 1 hold
Bellevue The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo due on 2/15/12
Green Hills The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo due on 2/16/12
Looby The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo due on 2/21/12 + 2 holds

...and so on. You see which copies are available and could request that any of them be put on your holds and sent to your local branch, or the branch nearest your work, or whatever worked for you.

Current search indicates that this particular book has 87 paper copies in the library system, and 21 ebook copies. The ebook version has 70 holds waiting. The paper version is harder to calculate because it has to be done line-by-line and I'm not manually adding them up. Plus, ebook holds are done as "next available" and paper books are handled differently.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by CJJ

2. Publishers feel that Libraries are fair game because digital books are still perceived as something that only the well-off are pursuing. If someone is willing to spend a $100 just to be in the game, that separates them economically from those who wont or can't. So I think publishers care very little if they piss off Library patrons. They don't perceive them as potential customers.

Digital books are also a boon to disabled readers. People who can't hold a regular book, or who are blind (tts) or need large print may read digitally nearly exclusively. There's a sort of ADA/equal access issue here as well.