Jerry Pournelle on ebooks - Page 2

bowerbird · 11-07-2007, 05:18 PM

yvan said:
> How many read books on an iPhone? Every PRS owner reads on their reader.

how many people read books, period? (answer: an astonishingly small percentage.)

> Dedicated devices are the best.

for hard-core book-people, maybe.

but once a multi-purpose device
matches your dedicated device,
let's see which one _you_ use...

(because there's no doubt about
which one most people will use.)

and this is why some people miss
the big importance of the iphone,
i.e., that it will have a big base...

-bowerbird

kiltme · 11-07-2007, 06:13 PM

The reason he used the iPhone is that it is what the windows smartphones should have been.

Yes you can read ebooks on a smartphone but they have postagestamp sized screens.

I read on a Axim x51 (3.7") and I used to read on a x5 (3.5"). The blackjack smartphone has a 1.7" screen, and it isn't touch screen so using html links is very painful.

So I a phone & a PPC on my belt and will problaby stay with both until I can get a big-screen smart phone.

When I first saw an iPhone I started drooling for a windows based smart phone is the same formfactor (huge touch screen).

HappyMartin · 11-08-2007, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

there are a couple million iphones in the wild now.
how many sony-readers?
-bowerbird

How many people make phone calls and how many people read books? I tell people I don't have T.V. in my house and they ask what I do in the evenings. When I tell them I read, amongst other activities, they sidle away like I crept out of a piece of cheese. Seems most people think of reading as an odd thing to do.

I realize that the above doesn't comprehensively answer your argument so let me have another go. Giving people a thing that they can read on will not make readers of them. We all have a thing we can think with yet most of us do precious thinking with it.

yvanleterrible · 11-08-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

yvan said:
> How many read books on an iPhone? Every PRS owner reads on their reader.

how many people read books, period? (answer: an astonishingly small percentage.)

> Dedicated devices are the best.

for hard-core book-people, maybe.

but once a multi-purpose device
matches your dedicated device,
let's see which one _you_ use...

(because there's no doubt about
which one most people will use.)

and this is why some people miss
the big importance of the iphone,
i.e., that it will have a big base...

-bowerbird

First of all, this is Mobile Read. Everybody here reads. We are hard core.
And don't mistake my answers regarding the choice of Apple, I'm a Machead since 1984; I've had a 512K, the second MacIntosh.
I love the iPhone, it's a great technological feat and its interface is nonplus. If it were available in Canada I'd be in the first lineups. Unfortunately some creep outfit bought the rights here to the name iPhone before Apple and it landed up in court. There is no telling when things will be resolved.

That said, I've owned and operated many, many all in one tools, devices and whatnots over the years. They all suffer the same drawbacks, lack of depth in some of their aspects, and because of that they only become part time used; which is what they were built for! Take any of these devices and compare any feature they perform and they lose when compared to a dedicated device. To that standard of comparison the only things that stands up to scrutiny on the iPhone are that incredible interface and MP3 use. The rest can all be done better on dedicated devices.

If we come back to reading, which is what this forum is about, many participants here have begun to suffer from fading eyesight; as I have. Peering for hours on a tiny refresh rate driven screen has become virtually impossible. Eink is here! What a godsend! Give me an iPhone with colo(u)r eink and a bigger screen and I'll be shouting about the place to sell them, and give all other devices away. (my kids love my e-garbage)

BTW, on a personal level, what's the reason for your formating? Do you have something against upper case? Or are you writing on a phone?

HappyMartin · 11-08-2007, 09:54 AM

I would read books on a phone if it had an e ink display and was at least the size of the new Gen3. Problem is I would look odd holding it up to my ear to take a call and even more odd with the thing in my pocket.

yvanleterrible · 11-08-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

I would read books on a phone if it had an e ink display and was at least the size of the new Gen3. Problem is I would look odd holding it up to my ear to take a call and even more odd with the thing in my pocket.

No worse than a Blackberry user!

Remember the first cell phones? If the high charges didn't kill you the weight did.

bowerbird · 11-08-2007, 12:47 PM

yvan said:
> First of all, this is Mobile Read.
> Everybody here reads.
> We are hard core.

yes, but you're not typical.
as i'm quite sure you know.

quite simply, you don't have the
numbers to ignite a revolution...

and that is the major reason why
pournelle wasn't talking about you.

he's talking about the people who
_are_not_ "hard core readers"...

people who would never even _carry_
-- let alone buy -- a dedicated machine.

but _might_ -- might! -- read a book
on a machine they're already carrying.
(or at least might _buy_ one, thinking
that they'll read it, even if they don't.)

this thread is not a general debate.
it is a thread about what jerry said...

he said he thought that the iphone
-- a device which millions of people
will indeed be carrying regularly,
and on which books can be read --
will help bring the long-discussed
e-book revolution into our reality...

like many others, i think the _web_
was the _real_ "e-book revolution"
-- or, to put it a bit more accurately,
the "digital text from individual people
attaining a global reach via cyberspace
causing a communication revolution" --
but for those people who define "books"
as "the producs from major publishers"
i think pournelle's analysis is spot-on...

of course, it doesn't hurt that those
major publishers have shot themselves
in the foot with their business model,
and now have nowhere else to turn
_except_ to the electronic-world, but
that's kind of beside the point, right?

> what's the reason for your formating?

self-expression.

> Do you have something against upper case?

yes. it's ugly.

> Or are you writing on a phone?

no, i need a big-ass keyboard to write...

-bowerbird

bowerbird · 11-08-2007, 12:48 PM

happymartin said:
> How many people make phone calls
> and how many people read books?

right. that's my point. exactly. and jerry's...
(did you think you were disagreeing with us?)

-bowerbird

yvanleterrible · 11-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Maybe you were quoting Pournelle but he didn't write your posts you did.
I was answering to what you said.
People who are not hard core will not read on portable devices because they will need a computer to get content to it. To get material there you really need to be convinced.ie hardcore.

I still firmly believe that you can not use a tiny screen to take the place of a bigger one, this is the biggest drawback of a crossover device, fortunately the music aspect does not suffer this limitation and the sound reproduction aspects as MP3 and telephony are aptly seved by those devices. However anything that has to deal with internet browsing, reading, using software etc. which as of today are used through the artifice of zooming, suffer limitations that won't be resolved unless an other form of display has evolved.

I respect your self expression, respect mine, as yours is built on choice mine it is built on tradition. Please no ughly words. This is a discussion.

bowerbird · 11-08-2007, 02:37 PM

yvan said:
> People who are not hard core
> will not read on portable devices
> because they will need a computer
> to get content to it.

huh? i don't follow that. to get to a book on the web,
all an iphone user needs to do is to surf to that website.

want to read "my antonia" by willa cather? go here:
> http://z-m-l.com/go/iphone/myantp001.html
click on the right side of each image to page forward,
and the left side to page backward. what you'll see is
each page as it was scanned. the type is big and clear,
and i'm one of those guys getting the old-people eyes,
so i'd imagine each page is very sharp to the young'uns.
moreover, each image fits nicely onto the iphone screen,
so there's no need for scrolling about. all in all, very nice.

back to pournelle, what he's saying -- and i'm saying too --
is that once millions of people are carrying iphones around,
the few of them that _might_ be readers (not "hard core",
but who do occasionally read a book) might -- if only by
_accident_ -- stumble upon a book online, start reading,
and realize "hey, this isn't a bad way to pass the time
while i'm sitting and waiting here at the doctor's office,"
and that -- multiplied across millions of people -- this will
hasten even further the decline and fall of the paperback.

i mean, i don't find _any_ weakness in that "speculation",
and believe you me, i would certainly tell you if i did...

will a convenient machine that they are carrying anyway
turn non-readers into readers? no, certainly not... and
nobody has said anything that stupid in this thread...

> I still firmly believe that you can not use
> a tiny screen to take the place of a bigger one

i would certainly hope you don't think i disagree!

because i second that emotion strongly!

i never even considered buying a p.d.a. for reading,
because the screens were so small it was ridiculous.
and i wouldn't even _think_ of telling anyone here
that the iphone screen was big enough if i hadn't
been convinced out of my _skepticism_ that it is.
would i like a machine with a bigger screen? yes!
i have wanted a paperback-sized screen forever!
(but if i pay $300+ for it, it'd better surf the web.)

-bowerbird

yvanleterrible · 11-08-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

yvan said:
> People who are not hard core
> will not read on portable devices
> because they will need a computer
> to get content to it.

huh? i don't follow that. to get to a book on the web,
all an iphone user needs to do is to surf to that website.

want to read "my antonia" by willa cather? go here:
> http://z-m-l.com/go/iphone/myantp001.html
click on the right side of each image to page forward,
and the left side to page backward. what you'll see is
each page as it was scanned. the type is big and clear,
and i'm one of those guys getting the old-people eyes,
so i'd imagine each page is very sharp to the young'uns.
moreover, each image fits nicely onto the iphone screen,
so there's no need for scrolling about. all in all, very nice.

Nice find! are there others? I know that you can read online on a huge number of sites, but would their formating 'hug' to the iPhone as well as this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

back to pournelle, what he's saying -- and i'm saying too --
is that once millions of people are carrying iphones around,
the few of them that _might_ be readers (not "hard core",
but who do occasionally read a book) might -- if only by
_accident_ -- stumble upon a book online, start reading,
and realize "hey, this isn't a bad way to pass the time
while i'm sitting and waiting here at the doctor's office,"
and that -- multiplied across millions of people -- this will
hasten even further the decline and fall of the paperback.

Agreed but there is no way of maintaining an infrastructure with such a marginal readership that would sustain the livelyhood of the authors and assure of following works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

i mean, i don't find _any_ weakness in that "speculation",
and believe you me, i would certainly tell you if i did...

will a convenient machine that they are carrying anyway
turn non-readers into readers? no, certainly not... and
nobody has said anything that stupid in this thread...

> I still firmly believe that you can not use
> a tiny screen to take the place of a bigger one

i would certainly hope you don't think i disagree!

because i second that emotion strongly!

Logic is logical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

i never even considered buying a p.d.a. for reading,
because the screens were so small it was ridiculous.
and i wouldn't even _think_ of telling anyone here
that the iphone screen was big enough if i hadn't
been convinced out of my _skepticism_ that it is.
would i like a machine with a bigger screen? yes!
i have wanted a paperback-sized screen forever!
(but if i pay $300+ for it, it'd better surf the web.)

-bowerbird

Agreed, we're all waiting for it. I guess in a way the iPhone would be the first. But I still like to curl up with what feels like a page, in a visual sense. It's the easyest way to make the words disappear into the images of the stories the brain imagines... so far. I do resent the fact that readers so far are considered merely as luxury items. And that first eink study machine still has us waiting. I'd love to be writing on one.

silvania · 11-08-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowerbird

there are a couple million iphones in the wild now.
how many sony-readers?

like that guy said, when asked why he robs banks:
"because that's where the money is..."

-bowerbird

Yes, but 100% of the people who buy Sony do so to read ebooks. I would venture that the number of people who buy the iPhone to read ebooks is, well, approximately zero percent. The math is left as an exercise to the reader

bowerbird · 11-08-2007, 05:03 PM

yvan said:
> Nice find!

thanks. except i didn't "find" it, i made it.

> are there others?

there will be, down the line.

it's just a matter of repurposing a scan-set.
and we now have millions of those. literally.

that particular scan-set was very nicely done;
scans were straightened, cropped consistently,
and placed on a "canvas" of a consistent size...
all that is important to the reading experience.

but, as you undoubtedly know, google's scan-sets
aren't nearly so nice. (like my understatement?)

too bad, that, 'eh? quite a missed opportunity...

> I know that you can read online
> on a huge number of sites, but
> would their formating 'hug' to the iPhone
> as well as this one?

again, those are just plain old page-scans,
shown at the height of the browser-window.
no, it's the width. shoot, i can't remember.
(wrong. i checked -- and it's the _width_.)
oh well, height or width, whatever, what's
_important_ is that it shows full-screen on
the iphone, which -- if it's readable for you,
and it is for me -- is exactly what you want.

and even though that particular demo
exists as static files on my web-site,
it's easy to script a viewer-app which
will create the .html files on-the-fly...

on wait, i just did that the other day,
when i needed it for some messages
that i posted here. like i said, easy...
> http://z-m-l.com/go/sss.pl

there's a half-dozen books in this one.

i haven't tried it out on my iphone yet,
and i don't remember if i used height or
width on this script, must've been width,
since i offered a two-up display as well
(wrong again, i used height on this one),
which might make a difference on how
these scan-sets display, especially since
some are from distributed proofreaders,
and they have this disturbing tendency to
blow up their scans to 1000 pixels wide,
which might very well mess up the code.

anyway, i've tried to keep away from doing
any development expressly for the iphone --
which means no guarantees on that, folks!,
i don't even want to hear if it doesn't work,
because i will find out using my own iphone
-- since i already have too many black holes,
but i did feel a need to let people know that
the screen really _is_ big enough to read on.
even for me, which is saying something...

-bowerbird

p.s. and you might try this for iphone reading:
> http://www.readdle.com
i haven't explored it, so i don't know if it's good.

bowerbird · 11-08-2007, 05:04 PM

silvania said:
> The math is left as an exercise to the reader

this reader would rather have a small percentage of a large number
than a large percentage of a small number. your mileage may vary.

-bowerbird

HappyMartin · 11-09-2007, 12:36 AM

Sorry but I just don't buy it. Someone who doesn't read and has some time to kill and has an iphone is suddenly going to think that reading on the thing will be a good way to entertain themselves. They are more likely to phone a friend, compose lengthy sms's or most likely, play one of the many games available. Far more people carry psp for emergency entertainment than will ever carry a reader. After all precious few people carry books.

A perfect place to read for time killing is a long flight. The majority of people dont even carry a book on board. They will page through the on flight mag, watch the movies and drink too much, anything but read. You could just as well say that long flights will be a great promoter of reading as you could say that the iphone will be good for promoting ebooks.

Anyway this is all conjecture and we will see. I will be very surprised though if the iphone has any discernible impact on ebooks at all.

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11-07-2007, 05:18 PM	#16
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	yvan said: > How many read books on an iPhone? Every PRS owner reads on their reader. how many people read books, period? (answer: an astonishingly small percentage.) > Dedicated devices are the best. for hard-core book-people, maybe. but once a multi-purpose device matches your dedicated device, let's see which one _you_ use... (because there's no doubt about which one most people will use.) and this is why some people miss the big importance of the iphone, i.e., that it will have a big base... -bowerbird

11-07-2007, 06:13 PM	#17
kiltme Junior Member Posts: 2 Karma: 10 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: axim x51v	The reason he used the iPhone is that it is what the windows smartphones should have been. Yes you can read ebooks on a smartphone but they have postagestamp sized screens. I read on a Axim x51 (3.7") and I used to read on a x5 (3.5"). The blackjack smartphone has a 1.7" screen, and it isn't touch screen so using html links is very painful. So I a phone & a PPC on my belt and will problaby stay with both until I can get a big-screen smart phone. When I first saw an iPhone I started drooling for a windows based smart phone is the same formfactor (huge touch screen).

11-08-2007, 09:54 AM	#20
HappyMartin Martin Kristiansen Posts: 1,546 Karma: 8480958 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Johannesburg Device: Kindle International Ipad 2	I would read books on a phone if it had an e ink display and was at least the size of the new Gen3. Problem is I would look odd holding it up to my ear to take a call and even more odd with the thing in my pocket.

11-08-2007, 12:47 PM	#22
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	yvan said: > First of all, this is Mobile Read. > Everybody here reads. > We are hard core. yes, but you're not typical. as i'm quite sure you know. quite simply, you don't have the numbers to ignite a revolution... and that is the major reason why pournelle wasn't talking about you. he's talking about the people who _are_not_ "hard core readers"... people who would never even _carry_ -- let alone buy -- a dedicated machine. but _might_ -- might! -- read a book on a machine they're already carrying. (or at least might _buy_ one, thinking that they'll read it, even if they don't.) this thread is not a general debate. it is a thread about what jerry said... he said he thought that the iphone -- a device which millions of people will indeed be carrying regularly, and on which books can be read -- will help bring the long-discussed e-book revolution into our reality... like many others, i think the _web_ was the _real_ "e-book revolution" -- or, to put it a bit more accurately, the "digital text from individual people attaining a global reach via cyberspace causing a communication revolution" -- but for those people who define "books" as "the producs from major publishers" i think pournelle's analysis is spot-on... of course, it doesn't hurt that those major publishers have shot themselves in the foot with their business model, and now have nowhere else to turn _except_ to the electronic-world, but that's kind of beside the point, right? > what's the reason for your formating? self-expression. > Do you have something against upper case? yes. it's ugly. > Or are you writing on a phone? no, i need a big-ass keyboard to write... -bowerbird

11-08-2007, 12:48 PM	#23
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	happymartin said: > How many people make phone calls > and how many people read books? right. that's my point. exactly. and jerry's... (did you think you were disagreeing with us?) -bowerbird

11-08-2007, 01:30 PM	#24
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	Maybe you were quoting Pournelle but he didn't write your posts you did. I was answering to what you said. People who are not hard core will not read on portable devices because they will need a computer to get content to it. To get material there you really need to be convinced.ie hardcore. I still firmly believe that you can not use a tiny screen to take the place of a bigger one, this is the biggest drawback of a crossover device, fortunately the music aspect does not suffer this limitation and the sound reproduction aspects as MP3 and telephony are aptly seved by those devices. However anything that has to deal with internet browsing, reading, using software etc. which as of today are used through the artifice of zooming, suffer limitations that won't be resolved unless an other form of display has evolved. I respect your self expression, respect mine, as yours is built on choice mine it is built on tradition. Please no ughly words. This is a discussion.

11-08-2007, 02:37 PM	#25
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	yvan said: > People who are not hard core > will not read on portable devices > because they will need a computer > to get content to it. huh? i don't follow that. to get to a book on the web, all an iphone user needs to do is to surf to that website. want to read "my antonia" by willa cather? go here: > http://z-m-l.com/go/iphone/myantp001.html click on the right side of each image to page forward, and the left side to page backward. what you'll see is each page as it was scanned. the type is big and clear, and i'm one of those guys getting the old-people eyes, so i'd imagine each page is very sharp to the young'uns. moreover, each image fits nicely onto the iphone screen, so there's no need for scrolling about. all in all, very nice. back to pournelle, what he's saying -- and i'm saying too -- is that once millions of people are carrying iphones around, the few of them that _might_ be readers (not "hard core", but who do occasionally read a book) might -- if only by _accident_ -- stumble upon a book online, start reading, and realize "hey, this isn't a bad way to pass the time while i'm sitting and waiting here at the doctor's office," and that -- multiplied across millions of people -- this will hasten even further the decline and fall of the paperback. i mean, i don't find _any_ weakness in that "speculation", and believe you me, i would certainly tell you if i did... will a convenient machine that they are carrying anyway turn non-readers into readers? no, certainly not... and nobody has said anything that stupid in this thread... > I still firmly believe that you can not use > a tiny screen to take the place of a bigger one i would certainly hope you don't think i disagree! because i second that emotion strongly! i never even considered buying a p.d.a. for reading, because the screens were so small it was ridiculous. and i wouldn't even _think_ of telling anyone here that the iphone screen was big enough if i hadn't been convinced out of my _skepticism_ that it is. would i like a machine with a bigger screen? yes! i have wanted a paperback-sized screen forever! (but if i pay $300+ for it, it'd better surf the web.) -bowerbird

11-08-2007, 05:03 PM	#28
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	yvan said: > Nice find! thanks. except i didn't "find" it, i made it. > are there others? there will be, down the line. it's just a matter of repurposing a scan-set. and we now have millions of those. literally. that particular scan-set was very nicely done; scans were straightened, cropped consistently, and placed on a "canvas" of a consistent size... all that is important to the reading experience. but, as you undoubtedly know, google's scan-sets aren't nearly so nice. (like my understatement?) too bad, that, 'eh? quite a missed opportunity... > I know that you can read online > on a huge number of sites, but > would their formating 'hug' to the iPhone > as well as this one? again, those are just plain old page-scans, shown at the height of the browser-window. no, it's the width. shoot, i can't remember. (wrong. i checked -- and it's the _width_.) oh well, height or width, whatever, what's _important_ is that it shows full-screen on the iphone, which -- if it's readable for you, and it is for me -- is exactly what you want. and even though that particular demo exists as static files on my web-site, it's easy to script a viewer-app which will create the .html files on-the-fly... on wait, i just did that the other day, when i needed it for some messages that i posted here. like i said, easy... > http://z-m-l.com/go/sss.pl there's a half-dozen books in this one. i haven't tried it out on my iphone yet, and i don't remember if i used height or width on this script, must've been width, since i offered a two-up display as well (wrong again, i used height on this one), which might make a difference on how these scan-sets display, especially since some are from distributed proofreaders, and they have this disturbing tendency to blow up their scans to 1000 pixels wide, which might very well mess up the code. anyway, i've tried to keep away from doing any development expressly for the iphone -- which means no guarantees on that, folks!, i don't even want to hear if it doesn't work, because i will find out using my own iphone -- since i already have too many black holes, but i did feel a need to let people know that the screen really _is_ big enough to read on. even for me, which is saying something... -bowerbird p.s. and you might try this for iphone reading: > http://www.readdle.com i haven't explored it, so i don't know if it's good.

11-08-2007, 05:04 PM	#29
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	silvania said: > The math is left as an exercise to the reader this reader would rather have a small percentage of a large number than a large percentage of a small number. your mileage may vary. -bowerbird

11-09-2007, 12:36 AM	#30
HappyMartin Martin Kristiansen Posts: 1,546 Karma: 8480958 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Johannesburg Device: Kindle International Ipad 2	Sorry but I just don't buy it. Someone who doesn't read and has some time to kill and has an iphone is suddenly going to think that reading on the thing will be a good way to entertain themselves. They are more likely to phone a friend, compose lengthy sms's or most likely, play one of the many games available. Far more people carry psp for emergency entertainment than will ever carry a reader. After all precious few people carry books. A perfect place to read for time killing is a long flight. The majority of people dont even carry a book on board. They will page through the on flight mag, watch the movies and drink too much, anything but read. You could just as well say that long flights will be a great promoter of reading as you could say that the iphone will be good for promoting ebooks. Anyway this is all conjecture and we will see. I will be very surprised though if the iphone has any discernible impact on ebooks at all.

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