will kindlenistas be as rabid as ifanatics?

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by HarryT

With respect, David, I think you've misrepresented the issue. Most of the "attacks" are coming from people who are criticising the Kindle but have no experience of using one.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Definitely. I totally agree with you there. It was the eInk Kindles that I was specifically referring to. The lack of any form of external card storage on the Fire is an issue.

You know this is posted in the android subforum, right? With that context, I assure you, I haven't misrepresented what I've read.

Originally Posted by HarryT

The device is being sold at a break-even price point - perhaps even at a loss - because the expectation is that the user will buy content from Amazon.

I suspect Amazon's next tablet will have a card slot, and I suspect it won't be sold at a profit either. The two planned tablets were nicknamed the Coyote and Hollywood months ago, the fire is the coyote, and the Hollywood is higher end, 10", supposedly even quad core, and made by Amazon's normal hardware partner. They delayed it to next year last I read.

I actually believe they nixed the slot, not to prevent you from sideloading content, but to obfuscate OS hacks. I really don't think my HTPC recordings are a threat to Amazon's Video/Music/App combination, and I don't even think they think it is. However, were I load cyanogen mod or the like, I might or might not reinstall Amazon's portals thereafter (I personally would, but you know, the hypothetical hacker). At a $200 pricepoint w/ a dual core processor, the fire might have become the new favorite device to hack (as opposed to the B&N Nook color). It still might, but not having an sd card affects both hackers and users of hacks. Lots of NC users start by booting off the SD card to try things out before graduating to voiding their warranty.

The Hollywood will be pricier, and thus have it's own built-in deterrent to becoming the most popular hacker target. Hopefully, Amazon won't take any more extreme stance against hacking than leaving the sd slot off their base model, because if the nook color situation has proven anything, it's that hacking brings more fame than it costs in content. Last I read, the nook color owned half the non-iPad market, and I'd wager only a minuscule percentage of those are booting cyanogen, while a much larger percentage made their decision to buy with some influence from ecstatic hackers and hack users giving it free advertising. Amazon may need less of a boost given their starting point, but the boost doesn't hurt.

Then there are users like me. I like the safety net of hackability, but am unlikely to install a hack without provocation. If the company stops supporting the device with upgrades, I can upgrade myself. I'm already firmly tied into Amazon's 3 markets and will remain a loyal customer, so they have nothing to lose if I ever go the unofficial upgrade route.

[nursedude]

Originally Posted by David Marseilles

Despite claims to the contrary, I haven't seen this strain of fan in any substantial numbers for android thus far, but I fear that is about to change.

You're just not hanging out in the right places...

One of the forums I frequent for android has a fair number of 'droid-roids' that go almost apoplectic when talking about the iPad in comparison to their tablet of choice.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by nursedude

One of the forums I frequent for android has a fair number of 'droid-roids' that go almost apoplectic when talking about the iPad in comparison to their tablet of choice.

...walled-garden...style over substance...iSheep...

Nope, never hear that around here

[kjk]

Originally Posted by nursedude

You're just not hanging out in the right places...

One of the forums I frequent for android has a fair number of 'droid-roids' that go almost apoplectic when talking about the iPad in comparison to their tablet of choice.

It's always the case-the "other guys" are always the extremists, whereas "we" are the rational ones

[Marseille]

*Sigh*

Originally Posted by kjk

It's always the case-the "other guys" are always the extremists, whereas "we" are the rational ones

Except in this case, it's everybody but one sub-group as the rational ones, with the potential for more. Please don't strawman the thread as if it says that all amazon fans or apple fans are extremists -- much less everyone but android fans are extremists . The ifanatic phenomenom is hardly controversial. It exists. Denying it or pretending it exists equally among all users of all platforms is akin to pretending the US never landed on the moon.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

...walled-garden...style over substance...iSheep...

Disliking something about about a platform is not the same thing as being extremist about one's own. Another thing you'll see here are Android fans complaining about Android - and I have yet to be attacked by another android user for doing so. The sub-group of Apple fans that everyone knows exist assert that their platform is perfect and defend it rabidly, scorched earth style. The majority of Apple users are normal and I didn't suggest there are no rabid Android users, simply that the numbers pale in comparison. And I suspect most of the users referred to are actually anti-Apple, in reaction to the rabid ifanatics, rather than actually being rabidly pro-Google.

I've never seen any company inspire loyalty to the extent Apple has, and I can't believe how often I have to explain that isn't an insult to Apple. Does anyone really believe there is another company that compares?

[kjk]

Originally Posted by David Marseilles

he ifanatic phenomenom is hardly controversial. It exists. Denying it or pretending it exists equally among all users of all platforms is akin to pretending the US never landed on the moon.

What is interesting is if you ask longtime tech guys like Peter Rojas (Engadget) or Josh Topolsky (Engadget, TIMN), they will tell you that they see fanatics from every group. Topolsky even mentioned Nokia fans as being the worst in his experience.

I don't deny they exist. But making proclamations about "Kindleistas" and "iFanatics" is just rather insulting, imho.

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by kjk

What is interesting is if you ask longtime tech guys like Peter Rojas (Engadget) or Josh Topolsky (Engadget, TIMN), they will tell you that they see fanatics from every group. Topolsky even mentioned Nokia fans as being the worst in his experience.

Again, I never said there weren't fanatics of all stripes. Nor do I consider Josh or Peter authoritative on the matter. Their perspective gets skewed by their positions. Engadget and all tech blogs chase views to guarantee ad revenue. As a result, over the past few years, and especially in 2007-2008 when the other platforms were dying and Android wasn't a going concern, that meant posting tons of Apple content. It drew eyes and generated ad revenue. It also made users of other platforms, including Nokia's platforms, frustrated and jealous. Indeed, at the time, Nokia's install base dwarfed everyone else's. That led to some angry comments. That shaped Josh's view.

I don't deny they exist. But making proclamations about "Kindleistas" and "iFanatics" is just rather insulting, imho.

They should feel insulted. I'm not clear on why someone who behaves rationally would feel insulted on their behalf.

[kjk]

Originally Posted by David Marseilles

They should feel insulted. I'm not clear on why someone who behaves rationally would feel insulted on their behalf.

Really? So someone makes a racist comment, and only the person directly insulted should feel insulted? I feel insulted on their behalf as well, because name calling and insults don't belong here, regardless.

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by kjk

Really? So someone makes a racist comment, and only the person directly insulted should feel insulted? I feel insulted on their behalf as well, because name calling and insults don't belong here, regardless.

Comparing calling rabid users rabid to making a racist remark is the most offensive thing I've ever seen on these forums. Congrats, that's quite an accomplishment.

[kjk]

Originally Posted by David Marseilles

Comparing calling rabid users rabid to making a racist remark is the most offensive thing I've ever seen on these forums. Congrats, that's quite an accomplishment.

Insulting Kindle and Apple users with derogatory names on a messageboard dedicated to eReaders is rude and unnecessary, period.

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by kjk

Insulting Kindle and Apple users with derogatory names on a messageboard dedicated to eReaders is rude and unnecessary, period.

How many times do I have to explain that I didn't insult kindle and apple users? They're both wonderful groups of people. The small subgroups that attack rabidly everyone else rabidly for casually mentioning ways to improve a kindle or apple device are not. The thread and the names are directed at no one at Mobileread.

Whereas you are attacking and insulting, directly and rudely, a fellow mobileread member. I agree, that type of attack has no place here.

[=X=]

[Tinks]

I've seen the bashers on the Amazon Kindle forums. It's like people become personally offended if you say something negative about the device they own. I think this happens because some people can't look at things objectively. They think that since they bought a kindle/nook/etc. then that is the best device period. They don't realize that everyone has different needs and wants. I get a kick going to Barnes & Nobles website forum. A lot of those people are rabid as well. After Amazon released the new devices I went to the B&N website for some online entertainment. I find it all pretty comical.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by David Marseilles

How many times do I have to explain that I didn't insult kindle and apple users? They're both wonderful groups of people. The small subgroups that attack rabidly everyone else rabidly for casually mentioning ways to improve a kindle or apple device are not. The thread and the names are directed at no one at Mobileread.

Whereas you are attacking and insulting, directly and rudely, a fellow mobileread member. I agree, that type of attack has no place here.

KJK is right. You are insulting other members. Specifically, you are singling people out based on their choice of e-reader/electronic device and stating that people in this group aren't as discerning as people in other groups.

While it is, of course, not nearly as offensive as racism, it uses the exact same stereotypes and categorization. I.e., "Isn't it amazing how stupid people of [race] are?"
"Hey, I'm [race]."
"I'm not talking about you. You're very smart. But there are so many dumb people in [race]. But not you. Just generally. I mean, no one can deny that people of [race] are dumber than people of other races."

And of course the whole topic of this thread has managed to be insulting to two groups. "Are people of [race2] going to be as stupid as people of [race1]."

Again, this is not real racism. But pretending that a term like "iSheep" isn't at least mildly insulting to all apple users is being willfully blind.

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Specifically, you are singling people out based on their choice of e-reader/electronic device and stating that people in this group aren't as discerning as people in other groups.

I'd disagree point-by-point, but you clearly haven't read anything else I've written, so why would I think you'd read this response? Suffice to say for the sake of others, I have not suggested that a user of any platform is less discerning than an another. ifanatics are those well-known group of hyper vigilant Apple defenders, not Apple users. Nor have I insulted any MR member, making me an increasingly small minority in this thread. I find your buttressing of the racial spectre with a strawman argument all the more offensive, both to myself, and to victims of actual racism. It's akin to playing the nazi card. Even if you add a caveat, you guarantee that all anyone hears is the word itself, not the argument.

I've now spoken my piece on that matter. There is a difference between a real and thoughtful point about a clear and present sociological phenomenon and a platform flame, but that distinction is clearly lost. Given that, any mod so inclined has my full blessing to lock this thread down. People interested in productive disagreement, and therefore in conversation, don't dangle racism. Either way, I'm adding my own thread to my ignore list.