Characters vs story

[BillSmithBooks]

I think character and story need to complement each other...what drives the story is exactly who the character is and why they do what they do...

When you have a "character MUST do this thing" situation, you either need to rethink the character OR...sure, the character would NEVER do something like what you need them to do...UNLESS there are these extraordinary circumstances where this truly is the logical (or emotionally correct) course of action.

It's sometimes very interesting to have a character who continually tells himself, "I would never do that," and yet when the moment of truth comes, they have feet of clay and actually do feel compelled to do that very same thing they found so abhorrent when they thought about it.

[joycedb]

I think as long as you know how the book will end it doesn't matter what the characters do to get there as long as it's credible. Just like life, sometimes we have to go to plan B when plan A doesn't work.

[ekster]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

In fact, if I were outlining a story, and I realized in the outline that the characters were not working in that direction... I'd go back and manipulate the characters, the action, or both, to get them to do what I wanted and follow the desired story. Once it worked in the outline, I can start writing and know what was going to happen.

I under stand, and usually try to do the same. I flesh out my characters as much as I can from the very start, and take everything into account as much as I can, but I have a habit of really getting into character when I write, and I start noticing things I did not realize before when I get to writing a specific scene, where either the action does not fit the character well, or the character evolved to a point where it no longer fits, or sometimes, I just see a much more interesting action instead that will make the character more alive, and the story more interesting.

And honestly, I would hate myself if I stuck to the original idea and ignored a chance of improving the story/characters at the expense of taking the story in a whole new direction. But I know that I do not need to practice more on controlling just how much power I give to the characters on making their story.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by BillSmithBooks

When you have a "character MUST do this thing" situation, you either need to rethink the character OR...sure, the character would NEVER do something like what you need them to do...UNLESS there are these extraordinary circumstances where this truly is the logical (or emotionally correct) course of action.

This.

[crich70]

I remember reading about a 4 step process for outlining that I would think help nail down the basic storyline.
1. Write a premise (I want to write a book about...)
2. Write an opening paragraph
3. Write a closing paragraph
4. Write a series of #'s down the side of a piece of paper and write down 'flows of action' that carry the storyline from the opening to the closing. One # for each chapter. Some might find that too structured and others not structured enough but it certainly can't hurt to try it as a means of planning out a potential storyline. And since character influences story and vice versa who knows what you might come up with.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by crich70

I remember reading about a 4 step process for outlining that I would think help nail down the basic storyline.

Those paragraphs (2 and 3) should, I think, be on what you want to happen at the beginning and at the end, not attempts at actual opening and closing text.

[WPotocki]

Both.

Without a story, you give no reason for those characters to exist, let alone interact. Without memorable characters, you have a tale with no heart.

[lindsayw]

Originally Posted by Steven

I'd go back and manipulate the characters, the action, or both, to get them to do what I wanted and follow the desired story.

I do that, too. I used to be an animator, and we call that "changing the hinges". If a door opens the wrong way to allow an action to flow correctly, just go back one scene and change the hinges so the next scene will flow properly. It makes no difference to the story or the characters, and nobody will spot the change.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Those paragraphs (2 and 3) should, I think, be on what you want to happen at the beginning and at the end, not attempts at actual opening and closing text.

Well as it's just the outline stage at that point things aren't graven in stone either. I think they suggested the paragraphs in the book I read it in as more of a means to get you in the mindset of the story. You can always go back and re-write it as a point by point opening/closing to fit with the rest of the outline. In fact that probably is a good idea as it will probably help things to gel properly rather than seeming detached.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by lindsayw

I do that, too. I used to be an animator, and we call that "changing the hinges". If a door opens the wrong way to allow an action to flow correctly, just go back one scene and change the hinges so the next scene will flow properly. It makes no difference to the story or the characters, and nobody will spot the change.

So that's why that hinge moved! Seriously, though, in a few low-budget cartoons I've seen in the past (Hanna-Barbera stuff, probably), I've noticed little inconsistencies like that (doors that open in different directions at different times), usually attributing it to the desire to do the easiest animating, and they forgot they did it differently in the other scene.

Writing can be like that too: I've often gone through my work and realized I made some inconsistency in two scenes in order to get the best out of the later scene; then I have to go back and edit one or both of them, sometimes sacrificing the literary moment I was trying to capture, in order to be consistent. (The book I'm editing for re-release right now had a number of them... big, embarrassing inconsistencies, so much so that I'm glad the book wasn't read by many.)

[ekster]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Those paragraphs (2 and 3) should, I think, be on what you want to happen at the beginning and at the end, not attempts at actual opening and closing text.

Actually, looking at the way I've been going about writing right now, I did write the prologue (not a clean version, just a really fast draft) before getting down all the details of the story.

The reason I like it like this is it gives me sort of a test drive of the characters and the world. It helps me to see better if there's chemistry between them, and how would they react in future situations, what would fit them best, what should be changed, etc. which helps me plan the rest of the story afterwards.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

So that's why that hinge moved! Seriously, though, in a few low-budget cartoons I've seen in the past (Hanna-Barbera stuff, probably), I've noticed little inconsistencies like that (doors that open in different directions at different times), usually attributing it to the desire to do the easiest animating, and they forgot they did it differently in the other scene.

Writing can be like that too: I've often gone through my work and realized I made some inconsistency in two scenes in order to get the best out of the later scene; then I have to go back and edit one or both of them, sometimes sacrificing the literary moment I was trying to capture, in order to be consistent. (The book I'm editing for re-release right now had a number of them... big, embarrassing inconsistencies, so much so that I'm glad the book wasn't read by many.)

One trick I've read about to prevent this is keeping a writing bible. Basically you just list important information like what color the hero's eyes are etc. in it and then you can just look it up in the bible for that book rather than having to scan trough several 100 pages of text trying to find it. Errors like the hinges going the wrong way pop up in movies as well though. I remember the 1st Spy Kids movie had one. Juni puts a handcuff round his wrist (that attaches to a small metal box) and then he and Carmen find they don't have a key to unlock it. He gets up to look for one and suddenly the handcuff is round his other wrist! There are people who work on movie sets that are supposed to prevent this sort of inconsistancy but some always crop up. Another is Yul Brenner's dancing earring in The King and I. As he and Debra Kerr dance around the ballroom his earring goes from one ear to the other and back again.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by crich70

One trick I've read about to prevent this is keeping a writing bible. Basically you just list important information like what color the hero's eyes are etc. in it and then you can just look it up in the bible for that book rather than having to scan trough several 100 pages of text trying to find it.

I do this. Found its really helpful with time lines esply.