Seriously thoughtful English (or US) grammar

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

"English" is a boiling caldron of many languages. I recall reading, somewhere, that Spanish readers can still read El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha (15th century) or El Cantar de Mío Cid (12th century).

Anyone want to try 14th Century English? In modern type it's do-able, but in the script of the time I think very few would be able to read it.

"& he openynge his mowthe techinge hem, seyenge, Blessyd be pore in speryte, for here is the rewme of heuenes. Blessyd be the mylde, for thei schal haue the lond of lyf. Blessyd be thei that waylen, for thei schal be comfortyd. Blessyd be thei that hungren and thrusten ryghtwysnys, for thei schal be fulfyllyd. Blessyd be mercyful men, for thei schal swe mercy. Blessyd be men of clene herte, for thei schal se God. Blessyd be pesyble men, for thei schal be cleped Godes chyldren...."

Those who have learned to spell relief - Rolaids might have a small problem reading it.

txt msg ma b the end of enlsh u thnk 2?

You know, I have less trouble reading that old piece... That "modern" texting style is horrible. It relies too much on the spoken word. Whenever I encounter it, I ask the person typing it to explain what he (or she!) says.

And you think English is bad? I bet you can read books from the 18th century without problems (though the language may be a bit longwinded, as Harry already said, the grammar hardly changed).

I already have troubles reading books from the early 20th century in Dutch. There have been so many grammar changes that books from that time don't only bore you to death with their longwindedness (is that a word?), but they also are a pain to read because of the grammar changes...

And to be honest, I have no idea what the "official" grammar is anymore.

An example:

Spoiler:

take combined words. Such as oak leaf, pancake and berry juice. In Dutch all those three "words" are one word, so

oak leaf = eikeblad
pancake = pannekoek
berry juice = bessensap


Now, when I went to school (and that was in the '80s!), the rule was easy:

an oak leaf was a plant, so there was no "n" between the two words.
you made a pancake in only one pan, so, no "n" between the two words either
but you made berry juice from multipe berries, hence you'd get a "n" there.


At some point they changed it. A few years later, they changed it again.

I had to check the internet, but I found the new rules:

A combined word won't get the inbetween "n" if:

• The first part of the combined word as plural can have either an "-s" and "-en"
• The first part of the combined word as plural has an "-s"
• The first part of the combined word doesn't have a plural
• The first part of the combined enhances the second part (whatever they mean with that...)
• The firs part of the combined word is unique (huh?)
• If one of the parts is no longer recognizable as standalone word
• With fixed expressions

And it would be Dutch if there wasn't an exception to the rule:

Because there will be added an "-n" if the first part of the combined word as plural can have either an "-s" and "-en", but the gender of those two plurals is different.

So, oak leaf should be written as eikenblad, pancake as pannenkoek and only the berry juice would be the same.

And those changed happen every few years... And somewhere in the '40's or '50's, there was a huge grammatical change that really makes all those public domain books mostly a joke...

[Pinecone]

While the use of They as a gender neutral singular pronoun is commonly used, in proper grammer is not correct.

In business writing you should use he/she or him/her or you may (in a longer document) use he and she (or him and her) making sure that each is used the same amount (10 he and 10 she).

And as language is a living, growing, changing thing, this may change at some point.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Falcao

The following is (more or less)

Most Spanish nouns have gender. Thus, you can translate "friend" as "amigo" if it is a male friend or as "amiga" if it is a female friend. Plural nouns are the same, so you can talk about "amigos" or "amigas". But there is a catch. If among the group of female friends one has a male friend, then the plural is "amigos" like if all the friends were males.

Moreover, in Spanish there is a hint of machismo. We don't have a neuter term like "siblings", we talk about "brothers", even if there is one brother and five sisters. We don't have a term like "children", we say "sons". We don't have a term like "parents", we say "fathers". And so on.

We have this, but to a much lesser degree. We don't have the "sibling" word either, but simply say brothers and sisters. But we do have the "parent" and "child" neutrer word. But when the gender is unknown, it mostly is simply "he".


Talking about genders in language, it's always funny when there's a difference in gender for objects and there's a translation (especially on TV or movies). In English, cars and boats are the female gender (that boat, she...). But if something like that is spoken on TV and the subtitles come up, it'll be translated "that boat, he...".

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by TGS

For most of the history of human languages there were no national academies and language seems to have developed quite well. The purpose of the institutions of the type you mention seems to be to ossify language at a particular stage of development - usually one that reflects the interests of the powerful in society at a particular stage in history. None of which has got anything to do with knowledge acquisition, development and dissemination.

I didn't mention an institution, that was Falcoa. I responded to "language police". Do we not correct children when they speak? There are rules in grammar and technically, if we all followed said rules we would communicating to the best of our abilities. Its just "easier" to be lazy, and that laziness is passed on and eventually accepted. Although I am just as guilty in the process, I still find that there is something wrong there.

[CazMar]

Thank goodness we don't have a "language police" in English! That is what makes it such a widespread language, very expressive and flexible. You can create new words, new terms. It absorbs words from other languages freely. As an Australian I write using a mixture of English English and American English spelling, Aboriginal placenames, odd bits of Italian and various other words that work their way into my speech. I prefer it that way and don't really care that I don't even speak the way my grandparents spoke, never mind the 18th century. I can understand English from the time of Chaucer, but I don't need to speak that way.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by CazMar

Thank goodness we don't have a "language police" in English! That is what makes it such a widespread language, very expressive and flexible. You can create new words, new terms. It absorbs words from other languages freely. As an Australian I write using a mixture of English English and American English spelling, Aboriginal placenames, odd bits of Italian and various other words that work their way into my speech. I prefer it that way and don't really care that I don't even speak the way my grandparents spoke, never mind the 18th century. I can understand English from the time of Chaucer, but I don't need to speak that way.

I think we're mixing ideas here. Correct grammar has nothing to do with speaking like you're in the 18th century. Its about using the words in the language properly.
When I was growing up, it was drilled into me head that "ain't" is not a word. It is slang. If you take the contraction apart, you do not get actual words. Now, "ain't" is actually in the American English dictionary, and that drives me nuts.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

....

....Now, "ain't" is actually in the American English dictionary, and that drives me nuts.

As you're in the South, let me ask you about the word y'all being in the dictionary.


Yes, language is a fluid thing. But its' common usage and pronunciation helps to build a common (as in a base line) national identity. (Any who want to object to national identities being good or bad should start that up in "Politics & Religion".)

Imagine if Japan had as may dialects as Russia or even Italy in the early 1900's. And I'm not talking dialects as in the difference between a person from Alabama vs. one from Maine. But dialects and written language so different as to be mutually unintelligible.

While in a favorite Chinese restaurant two Chinese girls game in and started talking to the owner in Chinese. After moment both parties switched to English. After the girls left I asked what had happened. The owner said that he didn't speak Mandarin, only Cantonese.

In some countries people are treated/classified according to their economic, social, or professional standing. A major indicator, aside from dress, is their use and pronunciation of language. Linguistically challenged people will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in ANY sociaty.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

As you're in the South, let me ask you about the word y'all being in the dictionary.

I had NO ideal "y'all" had made it into the dictionary! Oh and Florida is not The South...actually, correction, anywhere south of North Florida is not the South. I grew up in Miami, its West Cuba. I actually don't know what this part of Florida considers itself, but to get to the "South" you have to travel North; there's an unspoken cutoff somewhere before Central Florida.

Speaking of colloquialisms: I spent some time in Texas. Many people used the phrase "might could" as in "We might could do that." Talk about having a nails-on-the-chalkboard effect. I wanted to run away screaming every time I heard it. Another one that I actually picked up and have to laugh at myself every time I say it "all get out" - "Its raining like all get out."

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

.... Oh and Florida is not The South...actually, correction, anywhere south of North Florida is not the South. I grew up in Miami, its West Cuba. I actually don't know what this part of Florida considers itself, but to get to the "South" you have to travel North; there's an unspoken cutoff somewhere before Central Florida.

So many New Yorkers and New Jerseyans have moved to the Florida area we can consider the lower east part of Florida as being Yankee territory in a Cuban/Puerto Rican neighborhood.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

So many New Yorkers and New Jerseyans have moved to the Florida area we can consider the lower east part of Florida as being Yankee territory in a Cuban/Puerto Rican neighborhood.

True. Interestingly enough, just about every island person I know, myself included, in Miami (besides Cubans), has either lived in New York, will live in New York, or has at least considered living in New York.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Linguistically challenged people will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage in ANY sociaty.

My emphasis

Except Mobileread, one hopes.

[SameOldStory]

I suppose that you are the only one to whom I haven't mentioned my dyslexia. Like any handicap I can try to mineralize it, but can never overcome it.

The ONLY advantage I have ever gained from it, is an internal chuckle every now and then when I read outdoor advertising and say to myself - "NO, they couldn't have said THAT!"


When I was about ten It would take me an hour to read from the top of one page to the bottom of the other page. Strangely, my mental lexicon is larger than many. It's the proper position of the letters, or even the letters themselves, that give me grief.

"Why the hell would someone like that even bother to read?"

Because I enjoy reading.


While in school I would write my reports by writing ONLY the first letter of each word in the report memorizing the report in it's entirety. Later I would go through the laborious process of typing it out VERY slowly to minimize the transposition mistakes that would naturally occur.


But I've lived with it over sixty years, and consider it better to have that than to be someone who is disdainful of those that he feels are inferior to himself.

One thing I have certainly learned over the years is that we all have crosses to bear. Et tu, TGS?