Harper Collins' response to new library lending policy

[pietrocrazy]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

To be honest, I think this is a good way to help circumvent pirating when checking out library books. Or at least recouping lost profits. So maybe not so much circumvent piracy.

I'm pretty sure there are people that just check them out, strip DRM and viola, they have a book for their library that won't be removed

I'm confused... are you suggesting that libraries strip the DRM and then lend the DRM-free versions of books? Because that certainly doesn't happen.

[ATDrake]

I think he means he thinks there are people who treat the library e-books like a pirate site to download from at their leisure. Statistically, there's probably a couple.

But it seems to me that anyone savvy enough to be able to strip the DRM without having their hand held would also be savvy enough to just plain hit up pirate sites to begin with, instead of waiting for books to free up and holds to come in and the limited # of borrowing slots you get at the library.

[pietrocrazy]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

I think he means he thinks there are people who treat the library e-books like a pirate site to download from at their leisure. Statistically, there's probably a couple.

But it seems to me that anyone savvy enough to be able to strip the DRM without having their hand held would also be savvy enough to just plain hit up pirate sites to begin with, instead of waiting for books to free up and holds to come in and the limited # of borrowing slots you get at the library.

I see it now, thanks for the clarification.

I think you're right. I doubt anyone with the technological know-how to strip DRM from ebook files doesn't also know how to operate bittorrent. I'm sure there are people who do this, but in the scheme of things probably very few.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Fbone

If a library decides to repurchase an e-book later in the book’s life, the price will be significantly lower as it will be pegged to a paperback price point.

It goes without saying that "paperbook" ebooks only get 15 circs, but that's only reasonable.

[ATDrake]

Those e-books are just so fragile. Too many views and they fall to bits, leaving you holding a handful of 1s and 0s.

[jhempel24]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

I think he means he thinks there are people who treat the library e-books like a pirate site to download from at their leisure. Statistically, there's probably a couple.

But it seems to me that anyone savvy enough to be able to strip the DRM without having their hand held would also be savvy enough to just plain hit up pirate sites to begin with, instead of waiting for books to free up and holds to come in and the limited # of borrowing slots you get at the library.

Actually, what they would be getting is actual real, well formatted books, not OCR'd crap on torrent sites...which was why I said that. Most of the people (like myself) who strip-drm, do so for their own books that were purchased from Amazon, B&N, etc so that we can read them where-ever we choose.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

Actually, what they would be getting is actual real, well formatted books, not OCR'd crap on torrent sites...which was why I said that.

You haven't been on the darknet much lately, have you? I hear epub (and more often than not "retail" at that) is the new format of choice.

And I've had my fair share of officially & legally OCR'd crap, thank you very much.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

Actually, what they would be getting is actual real, well formatted books, not OCR'd crap on torrent sites...which was why I said that.

That's entirely possible, although I think it would be very inaccurate to assume that only "OCR'd crap" is available via the darknet or that the publishers' official releases are of a high quality standard.

Personally, the crappiest e-book I've ever experienced (which wasn't an obvious quickie homebrew assembled without sufficient love and care, much less skill) was the library's officially licensed ePub copy of Driving With The Devil: Southern Moonshine Detroit Wheels And The Birth Of Nascar, product of the Crown Publishing Group, according to the Kobo listing which says it sells for 9.89 CAD.

You would not believe the crazy typos/scannos that littered the thing and were immediately obvious to anyone doing even a cursory skim of the chapter titles trying to figure out exactly what "Racing Car Plunjes into Thronj"* means.

But I have to admit, they did put in the footnotes correctly, which was a bit of a surprise, considering. And the curly quotes mostly faced the right way.

* Apparently this was a significant part of racing "H listory" in the "birthing j room", according to the highlights I took for posterity.

[JSWolf]

Gee, yet another duplicate thread on the same topic. Way to go. Well done.

[bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I know this will come as a surprise to many of you but if my understanding of pricing is correct, then the vitriol is a tad overstated.

Apparently Harper Collins sells the ebooks to the libraries at a 20% discount. In comparison, many publishers sell it at a 150% markup.

For a $10 ebook, this runs the library about 38¢ per checkout. The library also saves in that there are no overdue fees and minimal checkout time.

With other publishers, they may charge $25 for that ebook. The title would need to be checked out over 60 times before it becomes cheaper than the Harper Collins option.

For some of the high-demand best sellers, yes the single fee is better. For everything else, the HC option isn't that bad.


So, if it isn't necessarily cost, what are people reacting to then? I'd assume that the publishers are treating library ebooks like a license rather than a purchase.

I won't say this is great, but I do think it's not that bad, especially if the checkout durations are extended and the prices do drop as the demand for a specific title drops.

I basically concur. I used to buy books for a large university library in the US and at the time learned an amazing amount about the publishing industry. Generally, they do sell to libraries at a discount or through book consolidators who buy discounted multiple copies and then pass along part of the discount to individual libraries who buy only one or two copies each.

And libraries do buy hardback copies of popular new books, then sell them off at a fraction of their list price when there is no longer a need for multiple copies. It's a pity something of that function can't be retained with e-books, but perhaps it will be worked out over time.

It's possible to set up a system whereby the publishers would license rights to the libraries, basing their pricing on the currently available editions of books - but it may mean they have to go back to the old system of withholding the paperback editions of best sellers for a year or so. The idea of making the "renewal" of the license significantly cheaper than the initial purchase has some appeal - at least to libraries.

The publishers are running scared right now because they don't really understand the "electronics rights" market as well as they should given the nature of the changes headed their way. It's encouraging that the guy from HC is raising the issues he is in defense of their plan. It's not perfect yet, but they're thinking in the right direction - or so it seems.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Apparently Harper Collins sells the ebooks to the libraries at a 20% discount. In comparison, many publishers sell it at a 150% markup.

For a $10 ebook, this runs the library about 38¢ per checkout. The library also saves in that there are no overdue fees and minimal checkout time.

Where does the $10 figure come from?

Who know what they mean when they say they sell it at a discount, maybe they mean a 20% discount from the hardcover price.

[JeremyR]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

But it seems to me that anyone savvy enough to be able to strip the DRM without having their hand held would also be savvy enough to just plain hit up pirate sites to begin with, instead of waiting for books to free up and holds to come in and the limited # of borrowing slots you get at the library.

I dunno, you don't have to be savvy to find the places with the de-DRM tools, all you have to do is just ask in a place like this and you'll be given links publicly. Or told to search for a certain blog (and give the name).

On the other hand, finding pirate ebooks sites isn't so easy. At least it's not open.

I admit I haven't looked, but a lot of times when you do a search for a video game on google, you get links to download it in the first few pages. That is rarely the case with books.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by JeremyR

I dunno, you don't have to be savvy to find the places with the de-DRM tools, all you have to do is just ask in a place like this and you'll be given links publicly. Or told to search for a certain blog (and give the name).

Even so, we get a lot of people coming back to ask for help because they're having trouble figuring out the tools, despite the handy instructions written up at the source.

Thus, I consider the non-hand-holdy types have a far better chance of figuring out where to deliberately look for other materials (and not just be suckered in by some glossy looking scam site which charges $50 for access to "all the books you can read!") and greater chance of success in accessing them.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by jhempel24

To be honest, I think this is a good way to help circumvent pirating when checking out library books. Or at least recouping lost profits. So maybe not so much circumvent piracy.

I'm pretty sure there are people that just check them out, strip DRM and viola, they have a book for their library that won't be removed

Then just don't allow the books in the library in the first place. Hey, here's an idea, if the publishers are so freaked out about e-books: Stop publishing them! Go back to the hardbacks and paperbacks! Make it harder for all those awful, evil people who have the temerity to want to be able to read a book!

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

You're assuming what seems an artificially low price for the HC copy, paid for at what look like mass-market paperback prices.....

No, I'm assuming a $10 ebook price, with Harper Collins giving a 20% discount, and the competitor jacking up the price by 150%. I tried to be very clear about that assumption, and the qualifier that the HC only really works out if that assumption is correct.

Originally Posted by ATDrake

And the library would still get only 1 year + 1 month's worth of usage out of the new-model HC book, whereas an old-model HC/non-HC book could stay in the catalogue for years.

Mostly correct, except that we're talking 13 months of constant checkouts.

The titles only expire with uses, not with time. If people check out an obscure title 10 times when it first comes out, it stays on the "digital shelves" until it's checked out another 16 times, even if that takes 10 years.

26 most likely is low a number, but the renewal problem isn't going to be any different than a paper book that wears out.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is an optimal system, only that it isn't the train wreck some people imagine it is.