An eBook User’s Bill of Rights

[snipenekkid]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

Agreed. I think your odds of using a 15-year old paperback book is easier than getting a word processor file open from the 90s. I just engaged in this recently , trying to get a ton of files open from a Pentium 60mhz computer. Win 3.1 files (originally sourced in some sort of DOS word processor). Getting it to open and convert without losing a large hunk of the file took me hours of tinkering. Even getting the files off of the 100mb HDD was difficult. The HDD would not work on a modern IDE or USB adapter. Ended up with file copying operations in DOS via floppy and shuttling via a USB floppy drive.

I still didn't convert them all. I gave my dad step-by-step instructions, the original files on a usb stick, and left it up to him. I don't have the hours it would take to open-convert-save every one of those files to turn them into relatively modern Word docs.

I imagine we'll see more of these problems in the future. At work we had some powerpoint files and such from Office 98 that cannot be opened under XP/Office 2003. Never did figure out how to open and convert them. I anticipate 16-bit files from the win98 era are the problem now...wonder how long until 32 bit files become the difficult ones.

The term generally used for this is digital obsolescence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_obsolescence

But to be candid here, that is the fault of whoever was supposed to oversee the IT at work, assuming these were work related files. Or if your personal files, like the rest of us you were not proactive in either paying for apps which do exactly what you were needing to do only they could do it back when things were not so very out of date. Or your could now send them all through a paid conversion service. So, it's not impossible just not cheap. And I am sure there are open source dedicated file format conversion utils out there.

For ebooks thanks to Calibre we should always be able to convert to a new format as I doubt formats will be removed over time just new ones added.

So really I do not see any sort of obsolescence in modern ebook formats. I fully do expect the bulk conversion option in Calibre to work fine even if it means having to step through a couple formats to get to a newest-latest-n-greatest format. UNLESS the newest formats are proprietary and CLOSED not allowing books to be converted to the new format. Now that is a problem nobody can work around sans essentially violating copyrights and patents. But if web history has shown us anything someone is always willing to make it possible. Especially when a big corporation is stomping on the little guy.

Last, as personal libraries grow, not many people will buy readers without significant legacy support. I know I won't but then again it's pretty much a sure thing I won't have more than a 15-yr old library when I read my last book.

BTW, a file being 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit matter not one iota. It's the proprietary nature if those files are somehow encrypted. For the most part files today use a modified HTML and/or XML format and as such are just text. But nothing about the "bits" matter for the file itself, that is only about the OS. Nothing in a 256K-bit OS will stop it from reading a file created in an 8-bit application.

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

By the way, a lot of libraries won't accept donations of pbooks for their collections, either. They'll just put them in the bin for the next book sale. I suspect they're afraid of being flooded with "donations" from every kook on the planet, and really don't want to give shelf space to the flat-Earthers and other whack jobs.

Our library happily accepts paperbacks. They put some in revolving racks and people can check them out, but it is not an "official" checkout, i.e. they don't track it and so it's essentially honor system as to whether you return or not.

Plenty go to the annual library sale. I suspect those that are in good shape go here.

Others go to the "library shelves about town" program. Various businesses have a little library shelf, and these are stocked with paperbacks. Again, checkout on the honor system, i.e. you are expected to bring it back, but no one is gonna be after you if you don't. Our library likes to encourage readers. They also are forward looking on ebooks... and have been having a yearly e-reader play day, where they show people who are new to the whole thing how to use the library ebook lending.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

That said, it is arguable that digital copies will, in fact, outlast paper. Paper is an extremely stable medium, especially when made from the right materials (e.g. acid-free paper). It is unclear what will happen to the exabytes of data that will need to be migrated constantly in the future, lest it be lost.


...that is not how copyright works, and by now you should know it...

I'm more interested in how copyright will work.

How about this, copyright only holds for the format that the work was originally copied into?

Sounds reasonable to me.

Maybe add an additional formats copied into within the creators lifetime concession?

To be sure the above are just quick examples.

Example:

I am in the process of converting copyrighted works from paper to digital. Or I am simply converting from one digital format to another. What is the nature of my work, the data surrounding the text, which allows it to be read by a digital reader? Does this work fall within the original copyright or is it within its own newer copyright?

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by snipenekkid

Libraries MUST be non-judgmental and tolerant of all ideas and ideals whether they are personally distasteful or not.

No, they don't. Your average public library is a curated collection of books considered worthwhile by their patrons, not a random heap of garbage in print. Shelf space is a commodity, too, and they need to decide what to carry, and what not.

I suppose this could be argued for legal deposit libraries like the LOC, which have a somewhat different agenda, but your average library MUST make a selection, on a daily basis no less.

[snipenekkid]

sorry but while it may be the current, and past, practice, it's not in keeping with a free society. So I will never agree it's the right standards and practice for a library to judge the content of a book as acceptable or not. Of course it's easy to simply say it's not in the budget. But to say it's not acceptable is in itself unacceptable.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

There is indeed degradation of a digital file

Not of the file you bought. You buy a book from Amazon, read it (or not) -- and then "sell" that file. It's not even the same file, but a copy of the file -- and there should be no degredation.

And no way to ensure that the "original" (a ludicrous concept with it comes to digital files) is removed from your device, nor that you just don't sell "your file" to many people.

If you want "first buyer" (or whatever it's called), then there has to be some physical form that can't be readily copied.

It's the same reason you can't return software you buy, or music, or games. When it's so easy to just dupe the cd when you get home and then return what you purchased back to the stores, then stores CAN'T very well accep the return (if they want to stay in business).

If someone wants all the experience of buying a book -- then buy a book. If you want the experience of digital media, there are different rules.

Lee

[pietrocrazy]

Originally Posted by leebase

Not of the file you bought. You buy a book from Amazon, read it (or not) -- and then "sell" that file. It's not even the same file, but a copy of the file -- and there should be no degredation.

And no way to ensure that the "original" (a ludicrous concept with it comes to digital files) is removed from your device, nor that you just don't sell "your file" to many people.

If you want "first buyer" (or whatever it's called), then there has to be some physical form that can't be readily copied.

It's the same reason you can't return software you buy, or music, or games. When it's so easy to just dupe the cd when you get home and then return what you purchased back to the stores, then stores CAN'T very well accep the return (if they want to stay in business).

If someone wants all the experience of buying a book -- then buy a book. If you want the experience of digital media, there are different rules.

Lee

But you can resell CDs and DVDs (software I don't know about), and it's very easy to copy those before you resell them. In fact it's far easier to copy a CD than it is to strip DRM from an ebook to copy it. So why should ebooks be different from CDs and DVDs?

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by leebase

Not of the file you bought. You buy a book from Amazon, read it (or not) -- and then "sell" that file. It's not even the same file, but a copy of the file -- and there should be no degredation.

And no way to ensure that the "original" (a ludicrous concept with it comes to digital files) is removed from your device, nor that you just don't sell "your file" to many people.

If you want "first buyer" (or whatever it's called), then there has to be some physical form that can't be readily copied.

Lee

Example:

I buy an ebook, then print out a copy of the book, then destroy the ebook. I then donate the printed book to the library, would that be acceptable to you?

Why or why not?

[leebase]

Originally Posted by pietrocrazy

But you can resell CDs and DVDs (software I don't know about), and it's very easy to copy those before you resell them. In fact it's far easier to copy a CD than it is to strip DRM from an ebook to copy it. So why should ebooks be different from CDs and DVDs?

You can't return an opened CD back to the store. eBooks don't come in physical form, which is why they are not the same as CD's and DVD's.

You can make the argument that CD's are so easily copied that their form might as well be electronic. To wit - the sales of CD's have plummeted because people can buy a CD, rip it, give copies to all of their friends, and sell the used CD.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Example:

I buy an ebook, then print out a copy of the book, then destroy the ebook. I then donate the printed book to the library, would that be acceptable to you?

Why or why not?

If you buy a book, and then photo copy every page -- you could not give the photo copy away without violating copyright. Only the hassle and expense of actually making such a copy keeps the integrity of the physical object and allows such things as "first purchase" (or whatever that's called).

If you could buy an ebook, and the file was impossible to be duplicated (moved, but not duplicated), such that only one copy of the file could ever exist -- and only one person at a time could access that file (no multi-user access) -- then you MIGHT consider such a file "owned" and suitable for "first sale".

Wait....that's what DRM is trying to do. Technology to bind up a digital file to the same or similar features as a physical book.

Of course, DRM schemes all have abundant problems -- but until a digital file can be successfully bound, it can never be treated the same as a physical object.

Lee

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by leebase

Of course, DRM schemes all have abundant problems -- but until a digital file can be successfully bound, it can never be treated the same as a physical object.

Lee

I agree, in part. A digital file cannot be treated as a physical object, even though in a sense it is, the bits and bytes of the file itself, the energy required in transmission of the file from one place to another. These are physical things and come with physical costs.

A truly physically free book does not and perhaps never will exist. The question we all must ask ourselves when reading is, who shall we send payment to? The author of a well written narrative? The organization described in the article? Our ISP's? The electric company?

Historically, in a less networked world, the reader might not have even contemplated the idea of sending monies through the book itself directly into the authors bank account, the technology for this exists now though. And is in a sense already in place, purchasing a book from within the Kindle, deducts monies from my Amazon account and adds it to the authors.

Opening up the full text of all books to be freely shared, and then paid for after reading, would encourage an explosion of reading, far greater than any the world has seen before, this might indeed lead to the enlightenment we all seek.

We only have to rely on the faith of our fellow human beings.

"For the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned"

[pietrocrazy]

Originally Posted by leebase

You can't return an opened CD back to the store. eBooks don't come in physical form, which is why they are not the same as CD's and DVD's.

You can make the argument that CD's are so easily copied that their form might as well be electronic. To wit - the sales of CD's have plummeted because people can buy a CD, rip it, give copies to all of their friends, and sell the used CD.

Lee

So then do you think it should not be legal to resell CDs and DVDs because they are also easily copied?

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by snipenekkid

BTW, a file being 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit matter not one iota. It's the proprietary nature if those files are somehow encrypted. For the most part files today use a modified HTML and/or XML format and as such are just text. But nothing about the "bits" matter for the file itself, that is only about the OS. Nothing in a 256K-bit OS will stop it from reading a file created in an 8-bit application.

I'm an IT worker, I understand the difference. The problem is finding progams that are compatible to open such files, given a few generation skips.

The files from my dad's win3.1 box opened absolutely perfectly on Window's built it Write word processor.

If it had not been for WordPerfect, which apparently still has some legacy support built into it, I cold not have opened those old DOS files. Even Office XP didn't do the trick, no luck with Staroffice or OpenOffice either. I had already tried Office XP on WinXP. I was on the verge of installing win98 in a VM and finding a copy of Office 97 or something like that when I got Wordperfect to convert it.

Some 16-bit era programs already don't work on 32 bit WinXP...the problem just magnifies with the transition to 64-bit. I think things will continue to get worse in this respect. A lot of DOS and Win95 era software already requires DOSbox emulation or some other virtualization, and legacy software, to work.

I still say your odds of the paperback "working" or being in good working order, are better over a decade or two of continued technological advances.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

I'm an IT worker, I understand the difference. The problem is finding progams that are compatible to open such files, given a few generation skips.

And that takes us right back to the proprietary nature of those files. Open formats can have open source implementations, which can then be ported to new platforms in the future. Proprietary formats usually need proprietary programs, which often need to be run in an emulated environment because they will never be ported to future platforms. This is the true danger of using Office, or WordPerfect, or whatever application that outputs to proprietary formats. At some point in the not too distant future, those documents will be lost. Imagine if that document is your hospital's record of birth, or city's record of deed to your property. What happens when such important records are no longer readable?

Personally, I don't care if people prefer to use Office or some other proprietary application to write documents, as long as the documents are saved in an open format that anybody can read and write. Only then will our data be guaranteed to be accessible in the future.

Encrypted files are just the ultimate example of a proprietary format just waiting to be unreadable (which I think is the main point of them for the publishers).

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by rkomar

Imagine if that document is your hospital's record of birth, or city's record of deed to your property. What happens when such important records are no longer readable?

You really can't compare such official records to your personal letters from yesteryear. The institution in charge, the city, the government do take care of these things. Sometimes it's actually the other way round: we've had a land registry here in my country for 225+ years. The old ledgers still exist, but nobody except a few specialists would be able to read them. Good thing they have all been put into an official database. The system has been changed twice in the last 30 years, and undoubtedly will again in the future, but the records are still safe and, in fact, looked up daily thousands of times (more so than before, too, because you no longer need to make that trip to the county's office of official records.)

We need not be overly concerned with official records, I think. It's private data that we consider "nice to have" but not important enough to convert with every change in technology that's most likely to be lost.

Encrypted files are just the ultimate example of a proprietary format just waiting to be unreadable

Very true.