Semantics

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by crutledge

If the reference type="text" is the semantic, then I'm still caught up in the meta language, and no change is needed to the semantics. Only a Title change is needed. Have I been chasing my tail agai?. I still need the ePub for Dummies.

"Semantics" is just Sigil parlance. I'm not a Sigil user, so I don't know for sure, but I'd say that for Sigil, "semantics" is like saying what kind of element you want: a cover, a TOC, a copyright statement... those have specific "type" values that must be used. On the other hand, the "title" can be whatever you want (it's optional, moreover), and Sigil should provide a way to change it, if it doesn't yet (if not for other reasons, to allow elements to be named in different languages).

I don't see that kindlegen does much to change things whereas Calibre apparently makes major changes.

At least Calibre is open-source, and it's code can be inspected and modified if needed. What I meant is that after converting with KindleGen (or anything else, for that matter) to Mobi, the book can look quite differently: embedded fonts are not supported, there are no floats or right margins, things made invisible with "display: none" may appear again, etc. This kind of thing is contrary to a "WYSIWYG" editor.

[Valloric]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Valloric said "NO" to the second, because that would be breaking the ePUB spec (it does not allow "start" as type, but "text"). I'm sure he would be more than happy to allow the first, if it's not possible yet, as it's only defining a custom title for a guide element, which is spec-compliant.

Originally Posted by crutledge

from
<reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/CHAPTER_I.xhtml"/>

to
<reference type="text" title="Start Reading" href="Text/CHAPTER_I.xhtml"/>

Only a Title change is needed.

If only a title change is needed, then as Jellby said, we can work something out. It's certainly doable and spec-compliant.

Originally Posted by Jellby

"Semantics" is just Sigil parlance.

That's what I've been trying to say all along: "allow different semantics" makes no sense because "semantics" in this specific epub context is just a term I appropriated to describe marking content files with some kind of special information. Sometimes it means marking an image as a cover (thus creating a special <meta> tag in the OPF for iBooks), sometimes it means adding an entry in the <guide>, and in the future it will also mean other things. But consistently, "adding semantics" in Sigil means marking files in some way so that Sigil does something special with them (or related to them) on export.

It doesn't mean anything outside of Sigil (in the epub world).

To sum it all up crutledge, if all you need is a custom <reference> with type="text" (allowed value, as per spec) and title="Start Reading" (spec allows anything here), then create an issue on the tracker and I'll add something to satisfy this use case.

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by Jellby

To elaborate on my previous post: If KindleGen needs the second code to create what you want, KindleGen is behaving badly, as it should not require a non-compliant ePUB.

It doesn't. Kindlegen will quite happily accept and work with type="text".

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

It doesn't. Kindlegen will quite happily accept and work with type="text".

Which seems to be where I came in. Is it me? Am I missing something here? Hell, my MOBI's from KindleGen are not only as good as, but better than any PRC I ever created with MobiPocketCreator, not some lesser product. I use "text" and it works perfectly and doesn't add another step.

Hitch

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Which seems to be where I came in. Is it me? Am I missing something here?

Heh! Not really. The confusion was that crutledge was referring to the value of the "title" attribute, not the "type" attribute.

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Heh! Not really. The confusion was that crutledge was referring to the value of the "title" attribute, not the "type" attribute.

Words getting in the way of words. All the data displayed in the MOBI Contents Menu should tell the reader something about the structure of the book.

A typical sequence of files is as follows:


Cover.xhtml (image)
TitlePage.xhtml (image)
Table of Contents.xhtml
List of Illustrations.xhtml
Frontpiece.xhtml (image) marked in Sigil as Text and is Start Reading point.
Chapter_I.xhtml
...

Start Reading marks the point where the body of the book begins whether text or image.

Am I picking nits? No doubt. I guess I will continue my post editing atempting to get MOBI as accurate as possible. At any rate, this thread has been most fun and I have learned a great deal.

Thanks a lot, guys and ladies.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by crutledge

Words getting in the way of words. All the data displayed in the MOBI Contents Menu should tell the reader something about the structure of the book.

A typical sequence of files is as follows:


Cover.xhtml (image)
TitlePage.xhtml (image)
Table of Contents.xhtml
List of Illustrations.xhtml
Frontpiece.xhtml (image) marked in Sigil as Text and is Start Reading point.
Chapter_I.xhtml
...

Start Reading marks the point where the body of the book begins whether text or image.

Am I picking nits? No doubt. I guess I will continue my post editing atempting to get MOBI as accurate as possible. At any rate, this thread has been most fun and I have learned a great deal.

Thanks a lot, guys and ladies.

Do I understand correctly that the issue is that--hypothetically--the "start reading" point isn't TEXT? That's it is an image used as a frontspiece? As opposed to actual text?

I really am confused. The reader doesn't see the guide items in a TOC in any event, whether they're called "text" or "start reading" or "Bob's-yer-Uncle," so I am totally lost here as to the nits being picked. The only point of "text" or "start reading" or "Bob" is that it links to the spot to open the book--the human reader doesn't SEE it. So what information are they garnering from what it's named?

Hitch

[theducks]

Some users like to bypass all the stuff in front of the Forward/Prologue/1st CH
Some devices take that choice away
I can use the 'Catalog' key on my EPUB reader device

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Do I understand correctly that the issue is that--hypothetically--the "start reading" point isn't TEXT? That's it is an image used as a frontspiece? As opposed to actual text?

I really am confused. The reader doesn't see the guide items in a TOC in any event, whether they're called "text" or "start reading" or "Bob's-yer-Uncle," so I am totally lost here as to the nits being picked. The only point of "text" or "start reading" or "Bob" is that it links to the spot to open the book--the human reader doesn't SEE it. So what information are they garnering from what it's named?

Hitch

The reader sees every entry in the guide by title in the MOBI content menu.

With the following guide

<guide>
        <reference type="cover" title="Cover" href="Text/COVER.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="title-page" title="Title Page" href="Text/TITLE_PAGE.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="toc" title="Table Of Contents" href="Text/Table%20of%20Contents.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="loi" title="List Of Illustrations" href="Text/List%20of%20Illustrations.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/FRONTPIECE.xhtml"/>
    </guide>

the user will see:
Title Page
Table of contents
List of Illustrations
Text
First Page
Cover
And the book will open at the cover.

If the last line is changed to

<reference type="text" title="Start Reading" href="Text/FRONTPIECE.xhtml"/>

Text will be change to Start Reading
And the book will open at the cover.

If the line is changed to

<reference type="start" title="Start Reading" href="Text/FRONTPIECE.xhtml"/>

the user will see Start Reading and the book will open at the Start Reading point (FRONTPIECE) as per standard MOBI.

"You pays yer money and takes yer cherce."

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by crutledge

The reader sees every entry in the guide by title in the MOBI content menu.

With the following guide

<guide>
        <reference type="cover" title="Cover" href="Text/COVER.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="title-page" title="Title Page" href="Text/TITLE_PAGE.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="toc" title="Table Of Contents" href="Text/Table%20of%20Contents.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="loi" title="List Of Illustrations" href="Text/List%20of%20Illustrations.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/FRONTPIECE.xhtml"/>
    </guide>

the user will see:
Title Page
Table of contents
List of Illustrations
Text
First Page
Cover
And the book will open at the cover.

If the last line is changed to

<reference type="text" title="Start Reading" href="Text/FRONTPIECE.xhtml"/>

Text will be change to Start Reading
And the book will open at the cover.

If the line is changed to

<reference type="start" title="Start Reading" href="Text/FRONTPIECE.xhtml"/>

the user will see Start Reading and the book will open at the Start Reading point (FRONTPIECE) as per standard MOBI.

"You pays yer money and takes yer cherce."

Where? Where is the user going to see that? On my Kindle, I get "Go To Beginning" on the joystick control, and that is IT. I've never seen any menu item, anywhere, for "text" even though that's what I use for "start reading." Nor, for that matter, have I ever seen a "start" or "start reading" on my Kindle, either, in any book. Or in Kindle For PC.

I use KindleGen to make my mobi's, so I presume that they're "standard" MOBI. I use a guide that looks like this:

<guide>
        <reference type="title-page" title="Title Page" href="Text/TitlePage.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="copyright-page" title="Copyright Page" href="Text/CopyrightPage.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="dedication" title="Dedication" href="Text/Dedication.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="acknowledgements" title="Acknowledgements" href="Text/Acknowledgements.xhtml"/>
        <reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/HalfTitlePage.xhtml"/>
    </guide>

And I guarantee you that "Text" does not appear on any TOC, anywhere, or on the joystick menu, either on Kindle or K4PC, but when the user selects "Go To Beginning," it goes (in this instance) to the Half-Title page. What reader are you using upon which "text" or "start reading" appears?

Hitch

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Where? Where is the user going to see that? On my Kindle, I get "Go To Beginning" on the joystick control, and that is IT. I've never seen any menu item, anywhere, for "text" even though that's what I use for "start reading." Nor, for that matter, have I ever seen a "start" or "start reading" on my Kindle, either, in any book. Or in Kindle For PC.

I don't know in the Kindle, but when I used my Cybook for Mobipocket reading, it did show the guide titles (not the types, of course) in the "Go to..." menu. (It would also add a hardcoded "Start reading" item, which could not be changed, pointing, apparently, to the first anchor linked in the TOC, but that's a different matter.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Jellby

I don't know in the Kindle, but when I used my Cybook for Mobipocket reading, it did show the guide titles (not the types, of course) in the "Go to..." menu. (It would also add a hardcoded "Start reading" item, which could not be changed, pointing, apparently, to the first anchor linked in the TOC, but that's a different matter.)

So....are we discussing Kindles or Kindle Apps or other reading devices, here? If we're talking Kindles, it doesn't show up; I just tested it on 3 different books we've created using "text" as shown above, and it doesn't display on K4PC or a K2 device.

And really--not to sound dismissive at all--it's enough brain-damage to try to code things around all the different reading devices as it is; if the main MOBI reading device/platform, Kindle, doesn't display it, I for one, don't care if it uses TEXT in lieu of "Start Reading."

I'd also add that MobiPocket (Creator) didn't create MOBI's, humorously enough; it created PRC's, and it is entirely possible that the PRC's may be different enough wherein they did display any guide items that were added--but KindleGen doesn't display that one. We'd need your Cybook, Jellby, to be sure if it was the format or the reader, I guess. Well, I'm off back to the Theraflu; I'll leave you guys to hash it out (pun intended).

Hitch

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Hitch

And I guarantee you that "Text" does not appear on any TOC, anywhere, or on the joystick menu, either on Kindle or K4PC, but when the user selects "Go To Beginning," it goes (in this instance) to the Half-Title page. What reader are you using upon which "text" or "start reading" appears?

Hitch

I hope this can be seen. Mobipocketreader.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'd also add that MobiPocket (Creator) didn't create MOBI's, humorously enough; it created PRC's, and it is entirely possible that the PRC's may be different enough wherein they did display any guide items that were added--but KindleGen doesn't display that one.

MOBI and PRC is exactly the same (for our purpose). Just rename your .prc to .mobi

[DMSmillie]

I can't track it down at the moment, but I do know I read, somewhere, at some point, a reference to OPF file guide items which indicated that the ereader device or application could use the content of the "title" attribute in the device or application "Go to" menu (as with the "Contents" menu illustrated above from Mobipocket Reader). Ereader devices and applications are not required to do this, but it is an option.