Why the Foleo might succeed even though we don't like it - Page 2

Pitchfork · 05-31-2007, 08:19 AM

I have had a day to think about this. First I thought the same as most, that it was a poor excuse for a laptop, but now i am changing my views a bit.

You have to think of this device as an accessory not a fully functioning device, think of it as a thin client for your phone or perhaps the coolest keyboard you will get for your smart phone, then it makes a little more sense.

I must admit that the price of the device is completely wrong for it's intended purpose $200 is more realistic. Also I think that they need to work on Symbian support if it is going to stand a chance in the european market and offer full support for the features in phones such as the N95.

I would personally never buy one, but I think I understand a little more about where Palm are coming from.

nekokami · 05-31-2007, 08:31 AM

I think the key factor may be Google Apps and their equivalents. If you don't need local storage, this could be pretty cool. Use your phone for most things, but pull out a larger screen and keyboard when you want them -- and access the same content.

I like having a full-powered laptop, but I test web apps on mine, and do heavy graphics editing. I'm a geek -- I like tinkering with the plumbing. But many, many people who primarily deal with word processing, spreadsheets, email, and the occasional presentation could be very satisfied with the treo-foleo combo, if their apps and data were on the net.

yvanleterrible · 05-31-2007, 09:00 AM

The device is marketed mainly on its symbiosis with the Treo smartphone. This is the main point we first have to explore. Is it really that good and useful?

I did not dig for information yet but what computing power does it have? Does it use a mouse?

I don't need most of what actual notebooks offer, I'm no gamer so low horsepower is good.

I like the size of it so far. What features I'd like to see in such a device are:

Flash based computing ie. no more mechanical hard drives.(Too fragile for mobility)
Eink display with video colo(u)r. (I know it's too far off!)
No more MS dictatorship and exclusivity.(Unix is good here

) ( BTW Is one here at the mercy of a closed Palm dictatorship?)
Touch screen with full sensitivity.
And the ability to fold as a tablet.

Actually! What I'm describing is an Iliad with colo(u)r, the clamshell keyboarded shape of this device, with better reliability, and full media support.( video, JPEG, web and basic input) Now is that too much to ask?

It might not be much as it is but this device is an other choice away from the classical mold of the PC world. Is Palm trying to be an other Mac type rebel?

rlauzon · 05-31-2007, 12:14 PM

From TreoCentral :

Quote:

So who is the target market for the Foleo? In a word, executives. Hawkins said he has received a lot a positive responses from executives at the conference.

So the Folio isn't supposed to be a productivity tool.

Those of us who are actually do something aren't the target market. That explains why I find it so hard to figure out what the Folio can do for me.

NatCh · 05-31-2007, 12:33 PM

Steven Lyle Jordan · 05-31-2007, 12:57 PM

Nail, hit, head!

Executives only want to be able to keep contact with their executive friends, their favorite websites, and their drones. (What kind of executives would they be otherwise?) This thing is perfect for them!

yvanleterrible · 05-31-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlauzon

From TreoCentral :

So the Folio isn't supposed to be a productivity tool.

Those of us who are actually do something aren't the target market. That explains why I find it so hard to figure out what the Folio can do for me.

So! Your appreciation of executives is as high as ours?

Nightwing · 05-31-2007, 02:15 PM

Hum...

It a good START idea but needs more work so to speak... Smartphones, PDA micro laptops are dancing around what is really needed but cant come to use until rollable or folding screens come to pass. Until then its will be close but no cigar.

Smartphone: Convent but terrible input and screens...
PDA: Bigger screen but still hard to read and poor input...
Laptop: Decent screen and input but way to big. And breakable.
UMPC: A joke worst of all worlds....
Readers: Actually have decent battery life but slow screens and zero input.
iPhone: Screen and battery life..

Would be nice if it could stand alone... Instant on and if you could run Gotomypc or VPN pipe or something like that would be great.

I have some clients that need to be mobile and if they could connect back to the office with a very easy to see and decent input would buy it in a heart beat. Just to access data that is constantly changing.

Basically looks like an expensive large screen with a wireless keyboard...

ADDED: Wonder if it could be hack to make it self supporting. Net with its wireless or add on... At least it running LINUX and not Windows Moble!

sUnShInE · 05-31-2007, 06:37 PM

I just read a similar article in (I think) the SF Chronicle. I'm with Alex on this one. Convergent devices are a great idea in theory, but rarely do they meet all our needs in execution.

Similarly, I have a T3 that I haven't switched on in a year (I don't even know if it still works really). I use my Razr for phoning and txting, and my MacBook Pro for everything else. I still haven't gotten a new Blackberry, but my email usage is low due to my laptop use.

There simply isn't a consumer need for a Palm-top type device like this. Palm isn't going to break any market booms with this thing. Either you need a laptop, or you don't. Most people who don't, get along fine with a Blackberry or simply a cell phone.

branko · 05-31-2007, 09:22 PM

The "Think Grandma" argument rubs me the wrong way. That's only one step away from the "if only one percent of one percent of all Chinese people buy your product" argument, and both are often used to defend still-born products.

I like the "uneducated CEO" argument better, but here's a scenario: your CEO brings his toy Foleo to a conference where all his buddy CEOs are, and they whip out their 3000 USD ultra mobiles...

So what's left is the group of people who would like to do some work on the smart phones ... all four of them.

I think I get what Palm are trying to do, what with smart phones getting smarter. The thing is that for now this combination will have to compete with real computers, and the combo is going to lose. The very first time Foleo+smart phone owners are unable to do something they know they can do on their laptops, they're going to decide to leave the Foleos home next time and bring the laptops instead.

Also, the first flash-RAM, optical drive-less laptops will come out this year (Dell already lets you buy an ultra mobile with flash mem instead of an HD), and I wouldn't be surprised if you would be able to get real laptops for a Foleo price in a year that are just as light, and just as energy friendly.

(For those saying that a Linux-based laptop IS a real computer: think grandma.)

scotty1024 · 05-31-2007, 09:47 PM

Its the corporate etch a sketch straight from Dilbert.

I'm sure Deloitte http://www.deloitte.com already has a couple pallets on order to hand out as new corporate status symbols. The fact that they are un-notebooks will just emphasize how those that get them are appreciated for their ability to make executive decisions, not for their ability to do research or assemble presentations. People with these devices direct others to dig and assemble.

It will be for a Trump aide as a Crystal encrusted Sidekick was for Paris.

Nightwing · 05-31-2007, 10:00 PM

Flash memory drives will be expensive for a while... But its the wave of the future. Just caught a 256GB one at a tech site...

This is basically either or both a bandage and or rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship. It add nothing that is not already available and is more expensive.

Before some one says the Sony Reader and the other eink readers are like this. They are not. They have the tech for its market that were needed... Readable screen in medium to direct sun light and up to a month standby or at least 5000 pages. Other units in the past were adaptation of what was then poor or small LCD screen and limited battery life... AKA the reader fits the next generation. Not perfection but close enough to be usfull.

I do not recommend under 500 dollar laptops. Basically low power in more ways then one... Usually bulky heavy and prone to breakage.

morituri · 06-01-2007, 06:03 AM

I just wish the Foleo could be a refreshed version of the Psion Series 7 - same form factor (loved the leather casing), with the Palm Linux, WiFi, Bluetooth, more memory. The Series 7 also had an excellent messaging client that I have never seen anywhere else -- an integrated application for contacts, email, SMS and Fax.

The Foleo would do fine if they had just positioned it as a mobile phone companion. A no-frills phone with just Bluetooth & 3G would be a great partner for the Foleo. A Treo, or an iPhone? I would just skip the laptop part altogether.

rmeister0 · 06-01-2007, 03:43 PM

The negativity to this device amazes me as much as the "OMG It's So New!" hue and cry coming from other directions.

This isn't really much more than a new variation of the old Windows CE handheld PC devices. But speaking as an executive who actually "does something", this device is a godsend. I'm always looking for a small lightweight device I can take to meetings for note taking. Tablet PCs and notebooks are larger, heavier, have shorter battery life, and...the instant on feature is a killer app for me. With laptops I either have to change the battery settings to it doesn't go to sleep in the middle of a meeting, or keep smacking the keyboard to wake it up. If I need to make a note of something somebody said, I can't hold up the meeting for 5 minutes waiting for Windows Vista to restart.

It is a niche product to be sure, and the price needs to come down (I've heard the same criticism about iPods and mobile phones too). But I easily see myself using this as an accessory to my desktop if it actually works as promised.

BTW, it is "Foleo", not "Folio". I have no problem with criticism of the product, but we should at least get the name right

kickaha · 06-01-2007, 09:08 PM

One bit of information I haven't been able to find about the Foleo is a comprehensive list of the applications with which it will ship. Everything I see is so focused on email and web surfing that they don't discuss the applications that would really help make the Foleo useful as a device on it's own merits.

If the Foleo were to ship with a set of the 'main' Palm OS PDA applications, I would buy one in a heartbeat. If the PDA apps were available as aftermarket software, I would also buy one.

Calendar, Phone Book, Notepad, World Clock, and a couple of other applications, with the basic look-and-feel of the Palm OS applications would be a great feature set for the Foleo.

I've owned perhaps a dozen Palm OS devices since the original Pilot was released in 1995. I currently have two Tungstens, and am likely to buy a Tungten T|X, just to have a spare in cse they wind up pulling the 'real' PDAs from the market.

What I've been missing for the past couple of years is a PDA with a larger screen. The stock 3"-4" screens are just getting to be too small for my aging eyes.

I like the instant-on, Linux-based, 10" screen-size features of the Foleo. If the 'Message' about the device weren't so focused and targeted as a Treo peripheral, and Palm allowed for the possibility that it could also function as a somewhat less portable, though vastly more readable 'obsessive-compulsive support system', I don't think there would be quite as much disdain for it here, and elsewhere.

Before moving into the electronic organizer world, I had a Day-Timer in which I kept my entire business life. I used the smaller-sized one, which suited the short information units I kept at the time. I know several people who still use the full-sized Day-Timers for more detailed note taking and information collection.

I could see the Tungsten or Treo as the 'pocket-sized' PDA and the Foleo as the 'full-sized' PDA.

If I could upgrade my Tungsten to a Foleo, I, for one, would be very happy. 5 hours of battery life, given the usage patterns of a PDA, isn't too bad. And I'm sure I would eventually grow to use the 'connectiviy' features, generating that revenue stream that Palm and it's partners would like me to provide for them.

05-31-2007, 02:15 PM	#23
Nightwing Addict Posts: 303 Karma: 541 Join Date: Oct 2006 Device: Cowon A2 Dell x3i, Sony Reader & Eee PC!	Hum... It a good START idea but needs more work so to speak... Smartphones, PDA micro laptops are dancing around what is really needed but cant come to use until rollable or folding screens come to pass. Until then its will be close but no cigar. Smartphone: Convent but terrible input and screens... PDA: Bigger screen but still hard to read and poor input... Laptop: Decent screen and input but way to big. And breakable. UMPC: A joke worst of all worlds.... Readers: Actually have decent battery life but slow screens and zero input. iPhone: Screen and battery life.. Would be nice if it could stand alone... Instant on and if you could run Gotomypc or VPN pipe or something like that would be great. I have some clients that need to be mobile and if they could connect back to the office with a very easy to see and decent input would buy it in a heart beat. Just to access data that is constantly changing. Basically looks like an expensive large screen with a wireless keyboard... ADDED: Wonder if it could be hack to make it self supporting. Net with its wireless or add on... At least it running LINUX and not Windows Moble! Last edited by Nightwing; 05-31-2007 at 02:18 PM. Reason: Though of something else.... And one other thing...

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05-31-2007, 08:19 AM	#16
Pitchfork Connoisseur Posts: 98 Karma: 31 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Spain Device: Iliad/Ipaq 6340	I have had a day to think about this. First I thought the same as most, that it was a poor excuse for a laptop, but now i am changing my views a bit. You have to think of this device as an accessory not a fully functioning device, think of it as a thin client for your phone or perhaps the coolest keyboard you will get for your smart phone, then it makes a little more sense. I must admit that the price of the device is completely wrong for it's intended purpose $200 is more realistic. Also I think that they need to work on Symbian support if it is going to stand a chance in the european market and offer full support for the features in phones such as the N95. I would personally never buy one, but I think I understand a little more about where Palm are coming from.

05-31-2007, 08:31 AM	#17
nekokami fruminous edugeek Posts: 6,745 Karma: 551260 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northeast US Device: iPad, eBw 1150	I think the key factor may be Google Apps and their equivalents. If you don't need local storage, this could be pretty cool. Use your phone for most things, but pull out a larger screen and keyboard when you want them -- and access the same content. I like having a full-powered laptop, but I test web apps on mine, and do heavy graphics editing. I'm a geek -- I like tinkering with the plumbing. But many, many people who primarily deal with word processing, spreadsheets, email, and the occasional presentation could be very satisfied with the treo-foleo combo, if their apps and data were on the net.

05-31-2007, 09:00 AM	#18
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	The device is marketed mainly on its symbiosis with the Treo smartphone. This is the main point we first have to explore. Is it really that good and useful? I did not dig for information yet but what computing power does it have? Does it use a mouse? I don't need most of what actual notebooks offer, I'm no gamer so low horsepower is good. I like the size of it so far. What features I'd like to see in such a device are: Flash based computing ie. no more mechanical hard drives.(Too fragile for mobility) Eink display with video colo(u)r. (I know it's too far off!) No more MS dictatorship and exclusivity.(Unix is good here ) ( BTW Is one here at the mercy of a closed Palm dictatorship?) Touch screen with full sensitivity. And the ability to fold as a tablet. Actually! What I'm describing is an Iliad with colo(u)r, the clamshell keyboarded shape of this device, with better reliability, and full media support.( video, JPEG, web and basic input) Now is that too much to ask? It might not be much as it is but this device is an other choice away from the classical mold of the PC world. Is Palm trying to be an other Mac type rebel?

05-31-2007, 12:33 PM	#20
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3

05-31-2007, 12:57 PM	#21
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	Nail, hit, head! Executives only want to be able to keep contact with their executive friends, their favorite websites, and their drones. (What kind of executives would they be otherwise?) This thing is perfect for them!

05-31-2007, 06:37 PM	#24
sUnShInE Drama Queen Posts: 784 Karma: 11712 Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: United States Device: Palm Tungsten T\|T3	I just read a similar article in (I think) the SF Chronicle. I'm with Alex on this one. Convergent devices are a great idea in theory, but rarely do they meet all our needs in execution. Similarly, I have a T3 that I haven't switched on in a year (I don't even know if it still works really). I use my Razr for phoning and txting, and my MacBook Pro for everything else. I still haven't gotten a new Blackberry, but my email usage is low due to my laptop use. There simply isn't a consumer need for a Palm-top type device like this. Palm isn't going to break any market booms with this thing. Either you need a laptop, or you don't. Most people who don't, get along fine with a Blackberry or simply a cell phone.

05-31-2007, 09:22 PM	#25
branko Connoisseur Posts: 93 Karma: 549 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Amsterdam Device: Palm Zire	The "Think Grandma" argument rubs me the wrong way. That's only one step away from the "if only one percent of one percent of all Chinese people buy your product" argument, and both are often used to defend still-born products. I like the "uneducated CEO" argument better, but here's a scenario: your CEO brings his toy Foleo to a conference where all his buddy CEOs are, and they whip out their 3000 USD ultra mobiles... So what's left is the group of people who would like to do some work on the smart phones ... all four of them. I think I get what Palm are trying to do, what with smart phones getting smarter. The thing is that for now this combination will have to compete with real computers, and the combo is going to lose. The very first time Foleo+smart phone owners are unable to do something they know they can do on their laptops, they're going to decide to leave the Foleos home next time and bring the laptops instead. Also, the first flash-RAM, optical drive-less laptops will come out this year (Dell already lets you buy an ultra mobile with flash mem instead of an HD), and I wouldn't be surprised if you would be able to get real laptops for a Foleo price in a year that are just as light, and just as energy friendly. (For those saying that a Linux-based laptop IS a real computer: think grandma.)

05-31-2007, 09:47 PM	#26
scotty1024 Banned Posts: 1,300 Karma: 1479 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Peoples Republic of Washington Device: Reader / iPhone / Librie / Kindle	Its the corporate etch a sketch straight from Dilbert. I'm sure Deloitte http://www.deloitte.com already has a couple pallets on order to hand out as new corporate status symbols. The fact that they are un-notebooks will just emphasize how those that get them are appreciated for their ability to make executive decisions, not for their ability to do research or assemble presentations. People with these devices direct others to dig and assemble. It will be for a Trump aide as a Crystal encrusted Sidekick was for Paris.

05-31-2007, 10:00 PM	#27
Nightwing Addict Posts: 303 Karma: 541 Join Date: Oct 2006 Device: Cowon A2 Dell x3i, Sony Reader & Eee PC!	Flash memory drives will be expensive for a while... But its the wave of the future. Just caught a 256GB one at a tech site... This is basically either or both a bandage and or rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship. It add nothing that is not already available and is more expensive. Before some one says the Sony Reader and the other eink readers are like this. They are not. They have the tech for its market that were needed... Readable screen in medium to direct sun light and up to a month standby or at least 5000 pages. Other units in the past were adaptation of what was then poor or small LCD screen and limited battery life... AKA the reader fits the next generation. Not perfection but close enough to be usfull. I do not recommend under 500 dollar laptops. Basically low power in more ways then one... Usually bulky heavy and prone to breakage.

06-01-2007, 06:03 AM	#28
morituri Enthusiast Posts: 41 Karma: 500048 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Doha, Qatar Device: iPhone 6, iPad Air, Kindle PW2, Kindle HD	I just wish the Foleo could be a refreshed version of the Psion Series 7 - same form factor (loved the leather casing), with the Palm Linux, WiFi, Bluetooth, more memory. The Series 7 also had an excellent messaging client that I have never seen anywhere else -- an integrated application for contacts, email, SMS and Fax. The Foleo would do fine if they had just positioned it as a mobile phone companion. A no-frills phone with just Bluetooth & 3G would be a great partner for the Foleo. A Treo, or an iPhone? I would just skip the laptop part altogether.

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06-01-2007, 03:43 PM	#29
rmeister0 Addict Posts: 270 Karma: 298 Join Date: Mar 2005	The negativity to this device amazes me as much as the "OMG It's So New!" hue and cry coming from other directions. This isn't really much more than a new variation of the old Windows CE handheld PC devices. But speaking as an executive who actually "does something", this device is a godsend. I'm always looking for a small lightweight device I can take to meetings for note taking. Tablet PCs and notebooks are larger, heavier, have shorter battery life, and...the instant on feature is a killer app for me. With laptops I either have to change the battery settings to it doesn't go to sleep in the middle of a meeting, or keep smacking the keyboard to wake it up. If I need to make a note of something somebody said, I can't hold up the meeting for 5 minutes waiting for Windows Vista to restart. It is a niche product to be sure, and the price needs to come down (I've heard the same criticism about iPods and mobile phones too). But I easily see myself using this as an accessory to my desktop if it actually works as promised. BTW, it is "Foleo", not "Folio". I have no problem with criticism of the product, but we should at least get the name right

06-01-2007, 09:08 PM	#30
kickaha Member Posts: 11 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic USA Device: Sony PRS-500 / Palm Tungsten T5	One bit of information I haven't been able to find about the Foleo is a comprehensive list of the applications with which it will ship. Everything I see is so focused on email and web surfing that they don't discuss the applications that would really help make the Foleo useful as a device on it's own merits. If the Foleo were to ship with a set of the 'main' Palm OS PDA applications, I would buy one in a heartbeat. If the PDA apps were available as aftermarket software, I would also buy one. Calendar, Phone Book, Notepad, World Clock, and a couple of other applications, with the basic look-and-feel of the Palm OS applications would be a great feature set for the Foleo. I've owned perhaps a dozen Palm OS devices since the original Pilot was released in 1995. I currently have two Tungstens, and am likely to buy a Tungten T\|X, just to have a spare in cse they wind up pulling the 'real' PDAs from the market. What I've been missing for the past couple of years is a PDA with a larger screen. The stock 3"-4" screens are just getting to be too small for my aging eyes. I like the instant-on, Linux-based, 10" screen-size features of the Foleo. If the 'Message' about the device weren't so focused and targeted as a Treo peripheral, and Palm allowed for the possibility that it could also function as a somewhat less portable, though vastly more readable 'obsessive-compulsive support system', I don't think there would be quite as much disdain for it here, and elsewhere. Before moving into the electronic organizer world, I had a Day-Timer in which I kept my entire business life. I used the smaller-sized one, which suited the short information units I kept at the time. I know several people who still use the full-sized Day-Timers for more detailed note taking and information collection. I could see the Tungsten or Treo as the 'pocket-sized' PDA and the Foleo as the 'full-sized' PDA. If I could upgrade my Tungsten to a Foleo, I, for one, would be very happy. 5 hours of battery life, given the usage patterns of a PDA, isn't too bad. And I'm sure I would eventually grow to use the 'connectiviy' features, generating that revenue stream that Palm and it's partners would like me to provide for them.