Reviewers much too kind

[M T McGuire]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Constructive criticism is always good. I've had people flat out lambaste me before on my writing, while at the same time providing constructive criticism, and in the end I think it's made me better by helping me identify problems and fixing them. The mental checklist I go through now when writing is incredibly complex and long. But it's helped me get better and better. I'm now at a point where I can write stuff off the cuff with the same quality that my "finished" works were as little as 5 years ago.

I've found this, too but I reckon your writing grows and improves all the time, so I'm always quite excited to see whether I can keep it going.

Originally Posted by basilsands

I've got 3 books out, the oldest is 4 years old, and still I find things in it that make me cringe. I think what happens is that we writers know our story intimately and after a while read what we think it is supposed to be as opposed to what is actually on the page.

I finally broke down and am paying for an outside editor for my next work. That will probably fix a lot of the little nagging things.

I think you have to get somebody from outside to look at it. The other thing that's difficult, but important, to avoid is that initial rush of enthusiasm when you finish writing a book - especially the early ones - that makes you really want to get your stuff out there. I'm just publishing my "debut" novel. It's the fourth but the first one I actually have any confidence in. I actually persuaded some agents to read my first one - it was about 15 years ago - and they were very kind about saying no but I suspect that maybe why none of them will touch my stuff with a bargepole now!

Cheers

MTM

[ASparrow]

Originally Posted by M T McGuire

The other thing that's difficult, but important, to avoid is that initial rush of enthusiasm when you finish writing a book - especially the early ones - that makes you really want to get your stuff out there.
MTM

Bingo! This is so true. So difficult to do. So difficult, that I am unable to do it.

I ended up releasing my last one prematurely and now I'm releasing my new novel chapter by chapter as they are revised on Wattpad, where a few avid readers are goading me on.

[M T McGuire]

Originally Posted by ASparrow

Bingo! This is so true. So difficult to do. So difficult, that I am unable to do it.

I ended up releasing my last one prematurely and now I'm releasing my new novel chapter by chapter as they are revised on Wattpad, where a few avid readers are goading me on.

Yeh, I have a writers' group. There are three of us. We all encourage each other and read each other unfinished or at least 'raw' bits to get feedback. It sounds like your Wattpad followers are doing the same thing for you. It's invaluable. People who will give you feedback can really help you. When it comes to premature release (so to speak) if you're anything like me, the closer your writing gets to what you want to achieve, the easier you'll find it to hold back until it's ready.

Cheers

MTM

[ASparrow]

Originally Posted by M T McGuire

the closer your writing gets to what you want to achieve, the easier you'll find it to hold back until it's ready.
MTM

As an aside, I just checked out the samples for your books "Few are Chosen" and "Bog Man." Loved them! - the topics and also the voice and style. They're on my buy list for the next time I travel (the only time I read ebooks).

It certainly seems like you've achieved something with these. Best of luck on achieving more.

[M T McGuire]

Originally Posted by ASparrow

As an aside, I just checked out the samples for your books "Few are Chosen" and "Bog Man." Loved them! - the topics and also the voice and style. They're on my buy list for the next time I travel (the only time I read ebooks).

It certainly seems like you've achieved something with these. Best of luck on achieving more.

That's a lovely thing to say. Thank you so much for looking and I am delighted you enjoyed them. Are you ASparrow on wattpad?

Cheers

MTM

[ASparrow]

Originally Posted by M T McGuire

That's a lovely thing to say. Thank you so much for looking and I am delighted you enjoyed them. Are you ASparrow on wattpad?

Cheers

MTM

I am, but ssshhhh! Don't tell anyone.

[M T McGuire]

Originally Posted by ASparrow

I am, but ssshhhh! Don't tell anyone.

Well, I'm on Wattpad so if I can remember how to get in I'll look you up.

cheers

MTM

[frostschutz]

Originally Posted by ASparrow

My reviews on Smashwords have been much too kind.

Reviews are kind of a bad place to report errors and such; if there are lots of typos in a book I sure mention that in the review but I don't actually report the specific errors to the author, so it's unlikely that the issue will actually be fixed.

I think that authors who distribute their work mainly in digital format, over the internet, should adapt some if not all of the methods that are being used in software development. This includes a versioning system so you can see what changes you made to your work and when; as well as a bug tracker where readers can go and report typos, plotholes, and the like directly to the author.

Currently there is almost no good way to give authors feedbacks on their books. I don't want to list errors in detail in a review because it could put other people off (even though it's a good story despite the issues); same goes for the self promotion threads here in this forum. I'm extremely reluctant to give feedback here.

[kcmay]

Originally Posted by DavidRM

The other option is...learn to edit your own work.

It's a myth that you can't. Just like you get better at writing by writing, you can get better at editing your own work by editing your own work.
-David

I agree -- it can be done, but it is very difficult. Your eye tends to miss errors because your brain knows what you meant to say. But even duplicated words like the the can easily be missed by readers and copy editors if the first is at the end of one line and the second is at the beginning of the next. Software is pretty good at catching mistakes like that.

I did all the editing on Venom myself. It took 5 complete passes and 2.5 weeks:
1. Visually, on my Kindle
2. Aurally, using TTS on my Kindle
3. Using Serenity Editor software
4. Printed out and marking up with red pen
5. Visually, on my Kindle

I thought Serenity had found a lot of errors/poor wording choices, and when I started step 4, I was sure it would be super clean. HA! It wasn't. About 70% of the pages had some kind of correction.

Whether readers will find it well-written/edited remains to be seen.

[simonroyle]

Originally Posted by frostschutz

Reviews are kind of a bad place to report errors and such; if there are lots of typos in a book I sure mention that in the review but I don't actually report the specific errors to the author, so it's unlikely that the issue will actually be fixed.

Actually a lot of authors I know do fix errors that they get from reviewers and then rewrite if they think the reports had merit. I can't think of a single author that wouldn't appreciate having typos pointed out - especially if in digital formats or files (POD) that can be fixed relatively easily.

Originally Posted by frostschutz

Currently there is almost no good way to give authors feedbacks on their books. I don't want to list errors in detail in a review because it could put other people off (even though it's a good story despite the issues); same goes for the self promotion threads here in this forum. I'm extremely reluctant to give feedback here.

Send them a PM with a list if you don't want to publicly upset them. Writer's have egos for sure, but most have thick skins and all (all I know anyway) prefer to have detailed reports of factual errors

[ASparrow]

Originally Posted by frostschutz

Reviews are kind of a bad place to report errors and such; if there are lots of typos in a book I sure mention that in the review but I don't actually report the specific errors to the author, so it's unlikely that the issue will actually be fixed.

I think that authors who distribute their work mainly in digital format, over the internet, should adapt some if not all of the methods that are being used in software development. This includes a versioning system so you can see what changes you made to your work and when; as well as a bug tracker where readers can go and report typos, plotholes, and the like directly to the author.

Currently there is almost no good way to give authors feedbacks on their books. I don't want to list errors in detail in a review because it could put other people off (even though it's a good story despite the issues); same goes for the self promotion threads here in this forum. I'm extremely reluctant to give feedback here.

I don't mind if a bad review puts other people off. As a reader, I never dismiss a work because some reviewer criticized the grammar if there was anything redemptive and/or brilliant in the overall storytelling.

As a writer, I wish more reviewers felt free to be blunt about why they didn't like a piece of work - was it boring? Difficult to understand? Unbelievable? When they do, I find it very helpful going forward.

Smashwords does have a versioning system with each version identified by date. Those who purchased Xenolith in its early days can attest to how many versions it has gone through.

[frostschutz]

Even so, reviews are more for other readers, than for the author, in my opinion. In a review I don't want to tell the author what he or she should do differently or fix; I want to tell other readers what to expect should they choose to read this book.

If there was a feedback system for the author, I'd use it. For example Smashwords allows you to read the book on line in the browser: It'd be cool if I could just select words there and mark them as typos and at the end of the day the author could see the list of errors and correct them. I just don't see how I could do that in a review. I certainly don't want to read lists of typos in other people's reviews.

Anyway, that's just how I see it. I'm not a writer but I dabble in software development, hence I desperately miss a technical solution to this particular problem.

[ASparrow]

Originally Posted by frostschutz

Even so, reviews are more for other readers, than for the author, in my opinion. In a review I don't want to tell the author what he or she should do differently or fix; I want to tell other readers what to expect should they choose to read this book.

If there was a feedback system for the author, I'd use it. For example Smashwords allows you to read the book on line in the browser: It'd be cool if I could just select words there and mark them as typos and at the end of the day the author could see the list of errors and correct them. I just don't see how I could do that in a review. I certainly don't want to read lists of typos in other people's reviews.

Anyway, that's just how I see it. I'm not a writer but I dabble in software development, hence I desperately miss a technical solution to this particular problem.

Wow! That would be great. If readers could cumulatively annotate a sample, either through color-coded highlighting or tagging with messages. As a writer, I would eat that up.

[M T McGuire]

Originally Posted by kcmay

I did all the editing on Venom myself. It took 5 complete passes and 2.5 weeks:
1. Visually, on my Kindle
2. Aurally, using TTS on my Kindle
3. Using Serenity Editor software
4. Printed out and marking up with red pen
5. Visually, on my Kindle

I thought Serenity had found a lot of errors/poor wording choices, and when I started step 4, I was sure it would be super clean. HA! It wasn't. About 70% of the pages had some kind of correction.

Whether readers will find it well-written/edited remains to be seen.

Oh I hear you. When I was sure my book was perfect (ha ha haaargh!) I sent it to a copy editor who proof and copy edited it.

Then I uploaded it to lulu and printed off a copy which I read and edited, I decided to continue until I found no errors.
I did this 17 times.
I gave it to a friendly grammar nazi who found more errors and edited it again.
I had to do 5 Lightning Source proofs too...
I signed it off this morning and found two errors flagged up on that page 99 site this afternoon.

You are not alone!

Cheers

MTM

[bthrowsnaill]

Wow, I am humbled by the editing prowess on display in this thread. I had thought that the three edit passes that I did on my novel was a lot. I may have to hire an editor in the future, because those three passes took a full calendar year for me to complete. Needless to say, I am still receiving some suggestions for corrections from readers. I am very grateful for them.