Amazon no longer charges an extra $2

[Blue Tyson]

He means that he has the rights to sell books to the WHOLE WORLD in some cases.

So that a shop that will only sell those books in the UK when they could sell them anywhere is stupid.

Especially as it will drive publishers to set up their own sales, which generally speaking should be able to undercut retailers nicely.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Blue Tyson

He means that he has the rights to sell books to the WHOLE WORLD in some cases.

Sure... if he, as a publisher/retailer actually puts it into his contracts that he holds the international rights.

However, if a specific publisher doesn't have those rights, and the author does not agree to amend the existing contracts, the retailer can't just haul off and start selling internationally. For starters, that would be stomping all over the existing contracts.

Why, exactly, is it OK for a publisher to disrespect the agreement they've got with the author?

Originally Posted by Blue Tyson

So that a shop that will only sell those books in the UK when they could sell them anywhere is stupid.

No, not really.

Let's say I run an ebook store online. I'd like to keep my books simple, deal only in one currency, keep VAT / sales tax payments simple, avoid customer service issues due to language issues, cut down on fraud, minimize payments to my credit card processor, not run afoul of a nation's laws to which I am oblivious (do you really think you can sell Naked Lunch in Saudi Arabia and not get noticed?), and have reasonable marketing and advertising costs.

Merely because you can do something does not mean it's a smart business move. I can sell kitty litter at my online bookstore, does that mean I should?

Completely aside from international rights issues, there are tons of intelligent reasons to stick to one market.

Originally Posted by Blue Tyson

Especially as it will drive publishers to set up their own sales, which generally speaking should be able to undercut retailers nicely.

First, the biggest step forward in this mess was taken by a retailer, namely Amazon. I'm not sure how people have missed it, but the $2 fee is generally based on the cell phone service, not some "screw unAmericans" fee.

Second, if publishers are going to set up their own ebook stores -- which Penguin, Baen, Harlequin and others have already done by the way -- they're going to do it no matter how the international rights issues shake out.

Third, lots of publishers fully understand that 99% of customers don't give a rat's tuchas about the identity of the publisher. Most of them are either too diverse to put together a meaningful brand identity; others are too small to possibly benefit by pushing their own stores too hard. As such, publishers can't massively undercut retailers without repercussions that hurt their sales.

Fourth, the real issue here is merely one of availability. As ebooks become more popular, this issue is going to go away while a handful of prominent conservatives, Luddites and revanchists (The Beatles, JK Rowling) sit on the sidelines and lose sales. The market is going to put far, far more pressure on the entire system to get international sales in gear than any kvetching in a web forum.

[neilmarr]

***You didn't say anything substantial in this thread, certainly not in the post I quoted.***

My mistake Kali. Sorry. Discussion along these lines spans more than one thread right now and I made this point elsewhere. Can't remember where, I'm afraid, but if I come across it on this first visit of the day to MR, I'll come back with the link.

To explain that second point, Kali, some online stores have closed their doors to customers outsdide the US, UK and Eire recently (Waterstones and possible B&N, which was the Sony-users' alternative to the US-only Sony store), which means that those who live in the many other countries on our planet can't buy from them ... there's not even access to those titles where a publisher holds international rights.

I find myself in the odd position of defending big publishing here. The big boys of the industry are no pals of mine. But it's not necessarily publishers themselves who impose geographical restrictions. It's largely down to authors and their agents.

For instance, publisher A might have a great presence in country 1 but not country 2, vice versa for publisher B. So the agent and author deny publisher A rights in country 2 and deal with publisher B there for a higher advance based on projected sales.

Cheers. Neil

PS: Hi Kali. Here's the link to the other thread (re Waterstones) where this point is being discussed: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=103969. Very best. N

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

IUh huh. You might as well say that "speed limits encourage otherwise honest, albeit impatient, drivers to become minor crooks."

A speed limit doesn't prevent me from using the road. Geographical restrictions on the other hand do prevent me from reading the book. Your comparison is false.

Originally Posted by kacir

How come that owners of WiFi only K3 devices have to pay those Usurious $2 surcharge on their $.99 book?

How about those readers that only have a laptop and are reading using the K4PC application?

[Thjan]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

How about those readers that only have a laptop and are reading using the K4PC application?

Asked the US Kindle support that question. All I got was a standard copy & paste answer. But they also mentioned that they had a look into my account and didn't find any transactions. That was correct because I didn't want to pay for a service I can't even use. I buy my books somewhere else at the moment.

I got the impression that they were willing to give me a refund for the whispernet fee but I am not willing to try it out. If anyone wants to give it a try just ask the support why you had to pay the whispernet fee even if you only "own" Kindle 4 PC / Mac / Android / whatever after you bought a book.

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Sure... if he, as a publisher/retailer actually puts it into his contracts that he holds the international rights.

However, if a specific publisher doesn't have those rights, and the author does not agree to amend the existing contracts, the retailer can't just haul off and start selling internationally. For starters, that would be stomping all over the existing contracts.

Why, exactly, is it OK for a publisher to disrespect the agreement they've got with the author?

-- Sorry, that is all completely irrelevant. Neil said he did have those rights. Not to mention the fact that UK publishers do rely on Australian sales for a reasonable percentage, for example. So throw all those away then?

Let's say I run an ebook store online. I'd like to keep my books simple, deal only in one currency, keep VAT / sales tax payments simple, avoid customer service issues due to language issues, cut down on fraud, minimize payments to my credit card processor, not run afoul of a nation's laws to which I am oblivious (do you really think you can sell Naked Lunch in Saudi Arabia and not get noticed?), and have reasonable marketing and advertising costs.

-- Right. So stopping Canadians buying books in the UK is equivalent to selling Saudi Arabians Naked Lunch. That's ridiculous. Media business people are arrested by Saudi Arabians all the time, see hundreds of stories a day about that, don't we? If you wanted to cut down on fraud, you wouldn't sell in the USA, would you? If you only want to sell in Lithuania, advertising would be cheap, sure. But these website thingies...apparently people all over the world can see them. Even podunkbooksonline.com like the above.

Merely because you can do something does not mean it's a smart business move. I can sell kitty litter at my online bookstore, does that mean I should?

-- You'd only sell stuff for shitty cats in one country, presumably?

Completely aside from international rights issues, there are tons of intelligent reasons to stick to one market.


First, the biggest step forward in this mess was taken by a retailer, namely Amazon. I'm not sure how people have missed it, but the $2 fee is generally based on the cell phone service, not some "screw unAmericans" fee.

-- Yes, you see the word 'telco' I used? If you were not aware, that means telecommunications company. Purveyors of mobile-phoniness etc.

Second, if publishers are going to set up their own ebook stores -- which Penguin, Baen, Harlequin and others have already done by the way -- they're going to do it no matter how the international rights issues shake out.

Third, lots of publishers fully understand that 99% of customers don't give a rat's tuchas about the identity of the publisher. Most of them are either too diverse to put together a meaningful brand identity; others are too small to possibly benefit by pushing their own stores too hard. As such, publishers can't massively undercut retailers without repercussions that hurt their sales.

-- Unlike stopping people buying anywhere, forever. That won't have any repercussions on sales at all....

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

To explain that second point, Kali, some online stores have closed their doors to customers outsdide the US, UK and Eire recently (Waterstones and possible B&N, which was the Sony-users' alternative to the US-only Sony store), which means that those who live in the many other countries on our planet can't buy from them ... there's not even access to those titles where a publisher holds international rights.

Ok. And?

I just listed about a half-dozen reasons why a company may prefer to focus on one market rather than sell internationally. Just because a web browser can easily access waterstones.com in other nations doesn't mean it's actually easy, let alone smart, for them to do business abroad.

Sometimes, not every last customer is worth chasing.

[lene1949]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Odd you should mention that, Lene. I've just checked the Kindle Store where my own house has 78 titles and counting.

Our recommended ebook price is $5.95. But pulling up the Kindle Store from Europe (other than in the UK where you are) shows our $5.95 RRP but sells at the Kindle Price of $9.14 (incl VAT and Amazon's own Whispernet charge for download).

I just did my sums and, even in those countries charging a full 20% VAT, that would come to $1.19 ... leaving a full $2 charge per title for download still entirely in place.

Publisher returns, of course, are still based on our own RRP, so Amazon takes its commission on a sale, plus $2.00 download, plus the odd cents balance on countries where VAT is less than 20%.

Considering the huge multi-million dollars claim against the company for back tax in Texas, I can't help wondering what machinery is in place for Amazon to actually pay that VAT to all countries that charge it outside the US.

Cheers. Neil

I'm in Australia, Neil... I just checked one of your book, and my price is $5.95

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Ok. And?

I just listed about a half-dozen reasons why a company may prefer to focus on one market rather than sell internationally. Just because a web browser can easily access waterstones.com in other nations doesn't mean it's actually easy, let alone smart, for them to do business abroad.

Sometimes, not every last customer is worth chasing.

If they had said they found the problems of dailing with international customers too much problem, that's one thing. But they say they can't sell to international customers because the publisher says so.

Which still leaves the question: where do all those foreigners go to that do like to read in another language than their own? There is no publisher here that will publish English and American writers in English. So, why shouldn't I be able to get it from another EUROPEAN publisher?

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Ok. And?

I just listed about a half-dozen reasons why a company may prefer to focus on one market rather than sell internationally. Just because a web browser can easily access waterstones.com in other nations doesn't mean it's actually easy, let alone smart, for them to do business abroad.

Sometimes, not every last customer is worth chasing.

Yeah, the USA, Canada, Australia, Europe, New Zealand, Hong Kong, South Afirca... That last half a billion or billion customers or so barely worth the effort.