Book Page Numbers

[ChrisChillin]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

It's not that simple, as if it all could be decided on one make-or-break point. But most of us aren't single-issue voters.

On balance, the Kindle has the best combination of features, support, and overall value to make me decide in its favor. So that's what I want and what I'm getting. Yet the Kindle will remain limited in its usefulness so long as a standardized, stable reference rubric isn't in place. As a PhD candidate, I will continue to purchase a great many physical books that I might otherwise have gotten in eBook format. You cannot acceptably cite the "location" of a reference.

This can be fixed. The Kindle doesn't just have to be for novels and other casual reading.

[TomF]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We get people saying they really want this or they need that. The problem is that the features that a lot of people say they want or need exist in readers other then the K3. So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

Not sure how your reply applies to my comment. I own a Kindle, I don't see what the big fuss is about page numbers, locations are fine with me. I've been perfectly happy with both my K2 and my K3 and they do everything that I want them to (or I've found out how to allow them to do things they weren't designed to do). Works for me.

I believe your reply was supposed to be directed to the OP, not me.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

It's not that simple, as if it all could be decided on one make-or-break point. But most of us aren't single-issue voters.

On balance, the Kindle has the best combination of features, support, and overall value to make me decide in its favor. So that's what I want and what I'm getting. Yet the Kindle will remain limited in its usefulness so long as a standardized, stable reference rubric isn't in place. As a PhD candidate, I will continue to purchase a great many physical books that I might otherwise have gotten in eBook format. You cannot acceptably cite the "location" of a reference.

This can be fixed. The Kindle doesn't just have to be for novels and other casual reading.

Originally Posted by TomF

Not sure how your reply applies to my comment. I own a Kindle, I don't see what the big fuss is about page numbers, locations are fine with me. I've been perfectly happy with both my K2 and my K3 and they do everything that I want them to (or I've found out how to allow them to do things they weren't designed to do). Works for me.

I believe your reply was supposed to be directed to the OP, not me.

Jon is one of the original Sony fanboyz. he'll jump on any oppourtunity to diss a Kindle. pay no mind

[emalvick]

Originally Posted by ChrisChillin

It's not that simple, as if it all could be decided on one make-or-break point. But most of us aren't single-issue voters.

On balance, the Kindle has the best combination of features, support, and overall value to make me decide in its favor. So that's what I want and what I'm getting. Yet the Kindle will remain limited in its usefulness so long as a standardized, stable reference rubric isn't in place. As a PhD candidate, I will continue to purchase a great many physical books that I might otherwise have gotten in eBook format. You cannot acceptably cite the "location" of a reference.

This can be fixed. The Kindle doesn't just have to be for novels and other casual reading.

I was a PhD student in the past, and I can see where some of those here are coming from, but things were just as bad for printed documents as they are now with ebooks. With multiple editions of books, varying content, etc you had to really make sure your references were clean and accurate (total pages, edition number, etc).

I'm not sure why someone couldn't do something similar with ebooks. It is something that will have to be adopted through MLA or other formatting groups, but I don't see how identifying a specific location, the total number of locations, and even the file format couldn't work for ebooks and references.

A lot of the problems are going to exist as long as we have multiple formats. Right now, it will be epub vs. mobi vs. pdf.... Then, even if we get a standard format or standard method for ebooks and documents that work, we'll always have the issue of eboook vs. print. That's just how its going to be. Everyone is going to have to adapt to some extent be in the companies, the authors, or the consumers who do the reading. Locations do probably need changing, but I think it is a bit optimistic to think there will be one solution that works.

[kevinp]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You can change the font size using ADE and you still get page numbers. So don't blame it on being able to change the font size. Blame it on a bug in Mobipocket Reader that's been there for as long as the format has existed.

Imagine reading the book on my Android phone... turn the page 10 times and still be on the same page (at least my Sony's only on the same page for two page turns). I'll take the % complete any day!

People talk about being on the same page as their teacher or whatever. Is the majority of ereader users students? I would've guessed the majority to be casual readers like me.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by kevinp

Imagine reading the book on my Android phone... turn the page 10 times and still be on the same page (at least my Sony's only on the same page for two page turns). I'll take the % complete any day!

People talk about being on the same page as their teacher or whatever. Is the majority of ereader users students? I would've guessed the majority to be casual readers like me.

You can be on a % for far more than 10 page turns, so I don't see how that's better..?

Regarding your question about students, you're probably right that most users are casual readers right now.
But Amazon clearly sees benefit in making the Kindle appeal to more than just their current plain fiction-reading market, or they wouldn't be adding features and doing pilot studies seeking feedback in schools. (See my earlier post.)

How many people need the top 3 font sizes? Or facebook, or twitter...

Everyone has features they care more or less about, and it's awesome when people are so happy with the current models they need nothing more. But I think it's a smart of Amazon to invite and heed the more prevalent customer requests when they can, rather than just coasting and letting the competition provide features that can draw sales away.

I've even seen them change their positions pretty radically, e.g., remember when they said WiFi wasn't going to be added - not needed, etc.

The only thing I don't get is why they haven't gotten rid of the screensavers so many complain about. Can't be that hard to remove or change Emily Dickenson's pic.

[kevinp]

You're right. I'm on a % much more than a few (or ten) pages. And I agree that Amazon should do what they can to stay competitive. That's just good business sense. It just tickles me about how much people complain about stupid stuff.
Reminds me one time when I got a call from my sister. She was strongly complaining about having to spend money on a new battery for her truck. I asked how old her current battery was and she said it's the battery that came with her 10 year-old truck (here in Florida we're lucky to get three or four years out of a battery).

Anyway, to make my long point longer--what was my point?

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by kevinp

You're right. I'm on a % much more than a few (or ten) pages. And I agree that Amazon should do what they can to stay competitive. That's just good business sense. It just tickles me about how much people complain about stupid stuff.
Reminds me one time when I got a call from my sister. She was strongly complaining about having to spend money on a new battery for her truck. I asked how old her current battery was and she said it's the battery that came with her 10 year-old truck (here in Florida we're lucky to get three or four years out of a battery).

Anyway, to make my long point longer--what was my point?

Hey now, we all do or want stuff that others think are stupid.

Seriously, though, OT, but I'm curious - is that you in your avatar? If so, cool! Air Force, Army...? (I have all branches represented somewhere in my family, but I'm still pathetic at recognizing uniforms. )

[suecsi]

I'd rather they removed Facebook and/or Twitter than the top three font sizes. The range of font sizes on the Kindle was a buying decision compared to my old Sonys which had only 3, all of which were too small.

I even turn the font up sometimes on the train on the way home when I'm a little tired but really hooked in a book (currently Scaredy Cat by Mark Billingham).

[JMikeD]

I don't care if an ebook has page numbers or not, since it doesn’t affect my reading, but in regards citing pages for academic usage: if page numbers from a printed copy were embedded in the ebook, wouldn't that run the cost up a bit? It seems like it would require hand-tweaking. Also, since there are different editions of printed books, frequently with different page counts, would there have to be multiple page numbers in the ebook file, one for each edition? Would you have to purchase a new ebook version every time a revised book was printed? In citing academic works, you already have to specify which edition you are using.

With regards to book clubs or casual reading, do you put the page numbers in for hardcover or paperback? Regular or large-print versions?

I don't have an answer, but it seems more complicated than just putting in "page numbers."

[emalvick]

Originally Posted by JMikeD

I don't care if an ebook has page numbers or not, since it doesn’t affect my reading, but in regards citing pages for academic usage: if page numbers from a printed copy were embedded in the ebook, wouldn't that run the cost up a bit? It seems like it would require hand-tweaking. Also, since there are different editions of printed books, frequently with different page counts, would there have to be multiple page numbers in the ebook file, one for each edition? Would you have to purchase a new ebook version every time a revised book was printed? In citing academic works, you already have to specify which edition you are using.

With regards to book clubs or casual reading, do you put the page numbers in for hardcover or paperback? Regular or large-print versions?

I don't have an answer, but it seems more complicated than just putting in "page numbers."

... which is why when it comes to citing books, one is technically supposed to refer to the edition of a book (when there are multiple editions), the publisher, the city of publication, and even the total number of pages in addition to the page number something is on. At the university I graduated from, they had an office that spot checked your dissertation for completeness and accuracy with regard to references and citations.

With ebooks, the solution could be as simple as citing the "location" (according to the device and file format which could be locations on the Kindle, Pages on the Sony, and so on), the format (epub vs. mobi vs. pdf) vs perhaps the total number of locations or maybe even the size of the file to keep in line with the different editions that could exist with regard to ebooks.

The key is for a reader to be able to find the exact source exactly as you did. If the author cites an ebook, then the reader needs to be able to find it using that same ebook. While the citation may exist in other editions be it print or file format, that shouldn't have to be accurate. Afterall, if the information is good enough, a person can roughly estimate where the citation may be in another format or edition of the same source.

[JMikeD]

Originally Posted by emalvick

... which is why when it comes to citing books, one is technically supposed to refer to the edition of a book (when there are multiple editions), the publisher, the city of publication, and even the total number of pages in addition to the page number something is on.

Yep. Been there, done that. I did many research papers, both in school and at the engineering firm I worked at for many years. Plus, I had to read FCC regulations and quote from them.

[LakeLoon]

Thinking about the citation issue, maybe the thing to do would be to allow auxiliary "page mapping" files to be associated with ebooks. Basically, these would simply map the ereader's internal location system (e.g. Kindle locations) to some other pagination system, e.g. the pages of a particular paper edition. On your Kindle (or other ereader), you would have the option to display the current location in any format your "page mapping" file supports. You could, for example, set it up to track the paper edition(s) you happen to own, so you could go back and forth.

The downside is that, of course, somebody would have to go to the effort to create the "page mapping" files. But if you're trying to sell your ebook for academic purposes, it strikes me that you have a pretty good incentive to create such a file for your purchasers. And I suspect that there would be a community of folks willing to create such mappings simply for their own satisfaction.

The advantage of having a separate file is that it could be swapped/updated at any time without having to obtain a whole new ebook. You could also "retrofit" this solution to ebooks you've already purchased. You could also periodically update your "page mapping" files to include future printings of paper books.

[niceboy]

My current reader tells me how many screens in I am relative the estimated numbers of screens for my font setting and I like that but for discussing books it seems to me paragraph number would be even better than page number. I do not believe that paragraph numbering would be a huge technological challenge.

People who can't stand newb questions and comments can just not read and post to such threads, it is even less hassle than returning a ebook reader because it has one issue you hope might be addressed in the next software service release or just want to vent about.

[LakeLoon]

Originally Posted by niceboy

for discussing books it seems to me paragraph number would be even better than page number.

That has some appeal, but it sort of leaves the person with just the paper edition in the lurch. Very few paper books have paragraph numbers. If someone has cited a paragraph number and I want to look up the reference in a library book, it might be extremely inconvenient if the chapters are long. Parallel citations would be better, I think.