08-05-2010, 02:55 AM | #16 | ||
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08-05-2010, 03:52 AM | #17 |
The Forgotten
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Perhaps an even better analogy is American Idol.
In many ways, Simon Cowell & Co. have a job not dissimilar to that of a literary agent or publisher. They have to wade through hundreds of misguided or -- in some cases -- outright delusional aspiring 'astists' to find a handful who have even an outside chance of success. In the same way that Idol always has thousands of people who audition, oblivious to the fact that they simply are not good enough, I'm sure agents and publishers, too, are inundated with an endless stream of mediocrity. With that in mind, a 98% rejection rate doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. Last edited by afa; 08-05-2010 at 03:55 AM. |
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08-05-2010, 04:56 AM | #18 |
neilmarr
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Perhaps the only difference between the American Idol judging team and an acquisitions editor, AFA, is that American Idol (and its equivalent in a host of other countries) is seen by millions on TV and by a crammed studo audience so that the potential end consumer can see for him/herself exactly how and why a decision is made.
More often than not, the watching public is in full agreement with a thumbs-up and a thumbs-down, which shows the judges know their job (though, sometimes, not all judges agree). Because an acquisitions editor (like the vital casting director in film and theatre) works behind the scenes, his contribution to the literary gene pool goes unnoticed or is often undervalued, misunderstood and even considered suspect. Cheers. Neil |
08-05-2010, 05:27 AM | #19 |
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My first novel I wrote I thought was really good. But it was shit. It was utter and total unpublishable shit. I thought it was good. People I asked, said it was good. Now I've stopped asking those people. The better I get at writing the more painfully aware I become of my mediocrity (I compare myself to all the greats).
Now I've published two novels and know I've much yet to learn. But here's what I've learned. Apart from just the effort in writing it's actually quite easy to write a publishable book, no matter how stupid one is. The rules aren't even tacit. There's tonnes of "how to write books" that spell it out. Publishing houses write clear rules in bullet point. It requires effort to avoid to read these rules when submitting. Here's my theory. I think the problem is that writing is a creative venture and most people write for fun, and like their books to take them where their imagination takes them. They want the reader to have the same interests as them, and don't like explaining things that get away of their "brilliant" ideas. They just type away. Once there's all the rules to follow, most writers think the fun is sucked out of it and it screws up their creative process. So either they stick their heads in the sand and hope they're Van Gogh, and are a misunderstood genius, and its simply a question for their genius to be discovered. This never works. I think the majority of the 98% unpublishable novels comes from this group. This group will never succeed. Or they make an effort to pay attention to the rules and manage to find the time to write anyway and do manage to produce a novel. They still often end up in the 98% unpublishable pile because they're still learning. A major part of any creative endeavour is craft. It takes a few failed novels to find one's voice and to figure out what works, and what doesn't. I don't think this requires intelligence, just persistence and ability to take criticism and learn from it. The bottom line is that I think that it is quite easy to end up in the 2% publishable pile if you go about it systematically and work at it. You don't need to be overly clever or especially talented. All published writers I know, (and its a few now) all were successful for the same reason. They treated it like a job. A fun job, but nonetheless a job. If you do that you're already in the elite, unpublished or not. That said, even if you're in the 2%, your chances of being published are pretty slim. But at that level you get to have a dialogue with publishers and editors and you get all the information you need. That was at least my experience. Last edited by DrZoidberg; 08-05-2010 at 05:32 AM. |
08-05-2010, 06:24 AM | #20 | |
The Forgotten
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I'm sure in pre-Idol days, a lot of aspiring musicians, and even the general public, thought that there was something fishy going on. You could only make it in the music business if you had contacts, or if you were manufactured, etc. But now, we get to see with our own eyes that a lot of the aspirers are not 'making it' for a good reason. Not all, of course, but a large portion, certainly. Maybe they can just about carry a tune, but am I going to switch on the radio or buy an album to listen to someone who can 'just about' carry a tune? No. Similarly, I will not buy a book from an author who can 'just about' write. Publishers know this, and so they try to find authors whose work they think will sell. In the other related thread, Neil and others talked about the agent John Jarrold. Now, I happen to be a member of a forum where Jarrold is a frequent contributor (well, he was. He hasn't written in a while.) JJ himself admitted that his acceptance rate was very low (pretty much in line with the figures stated here). Interestingly, JJ also said that he has, more than once, rejected a manuscript that he loved. Why? Because even though it struck a chord with him, it was his professional opinion that the book(s) were not, for one reason or another, commercially viable. As a respected and well-reputed agent, he feels it is his responsibility to only pass those manuscripts to publishers that he thinks can sell. Along with the factors others have stated, this last is a very important reason a lot of manuscripts -- even well-written manuscripts -- are rejected. It is important for authors to pay attention not just to the guidelines of individual publishers, but the trends in the market as a whole. If you're writing Humourous Fantasy, for instance, you can be assured of receiving nothing but a scrapbook worth of rejection letters. You might love the book you wrote, and it actually could be brilliantly written, but it will get rejected because it has no place in the market. (Yes, I know of Terry Pratchett, but he doesn't count; his books sell by the power of his name. The genre itself has long been considered commercially dead.) Ultimately, then, the goal is easy to state, but incredibly difficult to accomplish - write a book that people want (and will pay) to read. Last edited by afa; 08-05-2010 at 06:28 AM. |
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08-05-2010, 06:28 AM | #21 |
Chocolate Grasshopper ...
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Thanks for starting this thread - it's very interesting to read numerous points of view and what happens behind the scenes (illuminating).
I admit I, personally, had a doubt about the very high failure rate until the analogy of the American idol was mentioned, now I understand totally from the little I've seen of the UK equivalent. Has the electronic media explosion made the task for the agents and publishers harder ? and can it be quantified in anyway ? |
08-05-2010, 06:52 AM | #22 |
The Forgotten
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I would guess that the answer is "yes".
I'm sure poorly written, unsolicited manuscripts have always been around, but I would guess the submissions would have increased exponentially. So while the agents and publishers previously had to dig through a hill of feces to find a gem, now they have bring out the heavy machinery and dig up a mountain. It was, after all, more effort for aspiring writers to get a typed copy their manuscript to an agent 45 years ago than today. Doesn't take much effort to fire an email that says, "Ive written a book. Its a briliant mix of fantasy, scifi, adventure, romance (for the gurlz teehee) and ball bustin action. u shuold take it 2 a publishing, well both be milionares. haha lol rotfl lmao" |
08-05-2010, 06:53 AM | #23 |
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True ...
I don't envy them .... So instead of rejecting 98% of 100, it's now 98% of 10,000 ! |
08-05-2010, 08:49 AM | #24 |
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I'm amazed the general consensus is that 98% of material sent in is unpublishable. I'd have put the figure more at 99% - 99.5%, but then I'm no expert at that end of things.
I can only speak from personal experience, but in the past when I've submitted work I've generally sent out 15 or so submissions to start with over a couple of months. If they all come back with a form rejection, I've stopped and either taken another look at the text, or slung it in the cupboard and drunk a bottle of Jack Daniels. If I get rejection that's personalised from an agent with feedback, I'll take the advice on board, make necessary changes and re-submit, along with another 15 or so to other agents over another couple of months. Rinse and repeat. There was one memorable occasion where an agent from PFD (large UK literary agency) actively encouraged me to send him more work - though ultimately it didn't go anywhere - which I put down to my lack of experience as I was only in my mid-twenties at the time, and not that I had about as much talent as a bucket of pig's liver and he was clinically insane. I'll liked the dairy metaphor Vintage - by that extension, does it make anything published by Stephenie Meyer stinking cheese? |
08-05-2010, 09:02 AM | #25 |
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08-05-2010, 09:29 AM | #26 | ||||||
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Or my favorite, "America's Got Talent". (with the limited number of people with talent, it should actually be "America's got NO talent". lol) Quote:
Also, in reference to your asking friends for an opinion, I learned that they make a good initial sounding board for ideas and content, but they never make good critics of the final product. For that you need complete strangers. Preferably the ones who will read your book and then send you home with a truck full of recommendations. My favorite critic was a guy I ran into in the tech world. He actually did a lot to help me get better, despite his regular replies of "OMGWTF!? BURN IT!" lol. The other one was an english teacher I had in college who actually sat down with me and explained to me in detail while it looked like a red pen factory had exploded on my paper. Those criticisms are sometimes the hardest to take, but also many times the most beneficial. Quote:
Case in point. In my novel "The Oort Perimeter", I created this awesome, massive, impregnable shield barrier that surrounds Earth. In theory it would completely and totally ensure that Earth was safe from all forms of harm. But you can't have a good book if the defense is too perfect. So I went and wrote a weakness into it. I then went and did the same thing in book 4 (you'll see what it is once the book is out), but in a different way applying a slightly different weakness to achieve the same end result. So in the end, rules can actually be a lot of fun to work with, depending on your viewpoint. Quote:
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Hear! Hear! Fully agree! Last edited by Steven Lake; 08-05-2010 at 09:35 AM. |
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08-05-2010, 09:44 AM | #27 |
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If we removed "marketability" from the equation, then fundamentally, I agree with the original poster's premise. However, "readability" now becomes a very subjective measure by which to judge a potential novel (one of the reasons why Smashwords, for example, offers very generous free samples).
A vast majority of independently released books could benefit from a professional edit, mine included; but does the lack of professional editing preclude that book from being a good read? Not necessarily. There are quite a few unpolished gems in that pile (much more than 2%, I would say without reservation). I, personally, am willing to forgive a few typos, split infiinitives and run-on sentences for getting as much "satisfaction" out of reading an independent novel for $2.99 as I would a highly polished corporate-produced novel for $12.99. Of course, that's just one person's opinion. Last edited by Valmore Daniels; 08-05-2010 at 09:50 AM. |
08-05-2010, 09:51 AM | #28 |
Chocolate Grasshopper ...
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It depends what you mean by professional editing.
One book I recently read was poorly edited in the sense that formatting of chapters and paragraphs on the page were untidy and, despite the good storyline, it became annoying. And this was a purchased book from FW ! An author is a storyteller. Not all will be good at laying out a book on the page, virtual or otherwise, and not all will be able to market and sell the book. A good agent/publisher will do all that, and more (one hopes). Some authors may not be sufficiently self-critical enough, either. |
08-05-2010, 10:04 AM | #29 | |
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That's why even if you're self-publishing it's vital to get as much editing and proof reading done as possible. If nothing else, it's good practice for submissions if you care to make them in the future. |
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08-05-2010, 11:29 AM | #30 |
neilmarr
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***Has the electronic media explosion made the task for the agents and publishers harder?***
Emphatically YES, Geoff. Since the first word processor made it easier than hand-writing or typing to actually produce a manuscript in the first place, and internet made it easier (if sometimes sloppier) to research -- sheeittt there are even programmes out there that will generate a plot and characters for you -- every man woman and their household pet can knock out 65K words and then send it to hundreds of agents and publishers at the tap of a few keys. Seems the whole world believes the tired old cliche that everyone has a book in them Trouble is that they have lost track of the fact that it must be a bloody good book to be of any interest to anyone but their old mom and favourite (now retired) English teacher. You would be amazed at the number of badly written and boooorrrrriiiinnnngggg autobiographies I knock back every week. Everyone's at it. And they don't even check the submissions guidelines that clearly state: No Non-Fiction, including biographies and autobiographies. It drives me potty. Hoots. Neil |
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