Indexes without page numbers?

[SigilBear]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

With your books you want to reach the widest possible audience, not locking yourself to a small subset of the market. And you want the books to look good on all devices (and have proper fallbacks), not just look good on iBooks and look like ass on everything else.

That raises a question: So let's say I switch to Epub 2.0 and create something I can sell on Amazon. If I want to make another version for Apple iBook, should I make that Epub 2.0 as well, or would it be better to make that one Epub 3.0?

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by SigilBear

That raises a question: So let's say I switch to Epub 2.0 and create something I can sell on Amazon. If I want to make another version for Apple iBook, should I make that Epub 2.0 as well, or would it be better to make that one Epub 3.0?

I agree with Toxaris. Your best bet is to make EPUB2 unless you absolutely needed EPUB3 functionality (Audio, Video, MathML, [...]).

EPUB2 will work everywhere... EPUB3s, not so much.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

Hi, I usually create Indexes like the one I attach (a screenshot from "Syria Calling" ePub). I think this is a good way to allow reader to follow link inside the ebook and have a way to differentiate the multiple instances of a word inside a single chapter.

fbrzvnrnd:

Which brings up that dreaded other issue. If any of those entries go to the same place as another--or worse, 4 or 5 entries in the Index go to the same page or entry--how does your reader get BACK to the correct index entry? Do you embed in the text "[back to 1][back to 2]" etc.? Or, really, for usability, it would have to be something like:

[Back to Dogs, hunting][Back to Setters][Back to Setters, Irish][Back to Family Pets]

no? This is the issue that we run into all the time with comprehensive indices.

@Wolfie:

Wolfie, my sweet. I disagree with you, about an index "must have" the links. As most of you know, I am constantly reading one non-fic book or the other. Having a list of the terms that were considered important enough to be included, in the index, is quite useful in assisting my searches. We've done that--left an Index in, complete with the page numbers, but w/o the links, and put something at the top of the page saying that it's been recreated as it was in print, but that the reader should use his/her search functionality.

Indices, generally:

Now, when we are asking to recreate a printed index, with links, we do the page map thing. We create ids for each page number location, and we link the page numbers in the index to that. We warn our clients about the obvious usability issues--a phrase or sentence about "family dogs" may be the penultimate sentence on a referenced page, in print, and may be 4, 5 or even more screens away from the target/landing location, but...that's what we do. I've not found any really BETTER way to do it, not without making the entire book look like the dog's breakfast.

ePUB3 versus ePUB2:

Lastly, IMHO, there is no reason to use ePUB3, if you do not need multimedia. The number of devices that support ePUB3 is still woefully small. So, while the set of devices that will work perfectly with ePUB2 is large, the set of devices that will work perfectly with ePUB3 is teeny. If you have to err...err in the direction of more devices, not fewer. Fail up, not down. That's my opinion.

(And really? I have NO IDEA why Anne-Marie--presumably, it was she?--would suggest such a thing, I really don't. It's daft. Of course, many of the InDesigners are all Mac-centric, all the time, so they have an utter bloody blind spot about devices that don't start with "i." That's the only reason I can think of.)

FWIW.

Hitch

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Lastly, IMHO, there is no reason to use ePUB3, if you do not need multimedia. The number of devices that support ePUB3 is still woefully small.

Actually, the number of devices that support a very basic, multi-media-free EPUB3 is quite large. Any device that's based on RMSDK (and I'm not talking about cutting-edge versions) is quite capable of displaying one.

I'm not saying EPUB3 is something everyone should switch to, but in my experience, not needing multimedia is actually a reason to consider using EPUB3 rather than a reason against it. A basic xhtml epub3 is compatible with RMSDK, Amazon, and iBooks.

A big chunk of the commercial epubs I buy/read these days are ADE-encrypted EPUB3s. *shrug*

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Actually, the number of devices that support a very basic, multi-media-free EPUB3 is quite large. Any device that's based on RMSDK (and I'm not talking about cutting-edge versions) is quite capable of displaying one.

I'm not saying EPUB3 is something everyone should switch to, but in my experience, not needing multimedia is actually a reason to consider using EPUB3 rather than a reason against it. A basic xhtml epub3 is compatible with RMSDK, Amazon, and iBooks.

A big chunk of the commercial epubs I buy/read these days are ADE-encrypted EPUB3s. *shrug*

Diap:

You are, of course, right. I am apparently turning into Jon.

On a less frivolous note, yes, that's most likely right. I suspect that I'm developing a kneejerk reaction to the mere sight of an ePUB3. We seem to be receiving these in ever-growing numbers (usually made with iAuthor), and asked to "fix it" (with the audio, video, animations, etc., naturally) so it will work in the rest of the eBook-verse. Thus, I'm having the Niagara Falls response.





Mea culpa.

Hitch

[DiapDealer]

No problem.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

You are, of course, right. I am apparently turning into Jon.

I agree with JSWolf on EPUB3... although not as rabidly. The mere mention of it does make me recoil and hiss though.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Actually, the number of devices that support a very basic, multi-media-free EPUB3 is quite large. Any device that's based on RMSDK (and I'm not talking about cutting-edge versions) is quite capable of displaying one.

Hmm, I would be more interested in a more comprehensive test of EPUB3s on older devices... I know my old Nook chokes on anything EPUB3 (refuses to open them and says they are corrupt)... although I haven't messed around with that in a while (after maybe the 4th or 5th "corrupt" EPUB3 I preemptively started stripping/cleaning code and make my own EPUB2 versions).

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Hmm, I would be more interested in a more comprehensive test of EPUB3s on older devices... I know my old Nook chokes on anything EPUB3 (refuses to open them and says they are corrupt)... although I haven't messed around with that in a while (after maybe the 4th or 5th "corrupt" EPUB3 I preemptively started stripping/cleaning code and make my own EPUB2 versions).

Where did you acquire the epub3s your Nook choked on? No fallback NCX would definitely make them incompatible with most epub2 reading systems. That's why commercial epub3s always include them.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Where did you acquire the epub3s your Nook choked on? No fallback NCX would definitely make them incompatible with most epub2 reading systems. That's why commercial epub3s always include them.

Bought from B&N + Google Play.

I will have to go plug in my old computer and go hunting down the EPUBs and take a closer look.

These two definitely didn't work:

• One of the latest Wild Cards books, Lowball by George R.R. Martin (2014, Tor Books) [Google Play]
• The Martian by Andy Weir (2014, Crown) [B&N]

Besides that, I would have to look through the rest of my files... I definitely know I ran across a handful more EPUB3s (from various different publishers) on my Nook over the past few years.

Side Note: I'll have to run these through the latest epubcheck and see if there are any complaints... or maybe there are updated versions since 2014.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by Hitch

fbrzvnrnd:

Which brings up that dreaded other issue. If any of those entries go to the same place as another--or worse, 4 or 5 entries in the Index go to the same page or entry--how does your reader get BACK to the correct index entry? Do you embed in the text "[back to 1][back to 2]" etc.? Or, really, for usability, it would have to be something like:

[Back to Dogs, hunting][Back to Setters][Back to Setters, Irish][Back to Family Pets]

no? This is the issue that we run into all the time with comprehensive indices.

It depends. I do not think the ebook like a book that must be electronic, but I think it like an ebook, something born digital. What is a index? It is a map of some contents "hidden" in ebook and it is a way to access those contents.
Some indexes are built as a one-side way, leaving the ereader the possibility to go back, other are a "two way" links. For example, in "Syria Calling" we have some terms that, from the chapters, moves to Glossary or to Timeline (using icons for this), and have some terms that from Subject Index or Index of Place Names leads to the chapter. In other ebook we build a "two way road", from chapter to Indexes and from Indexes to chapter.

If you want to see a *very* complex index I worked with, you can take a look to "Il ciclo della performance nei comuni" (it a free ebook): it has a lot of nested Indexes and "two way" links.

We cannot use a "go back", as you know there is no "go back" in XHTML, we cannot use in a significative way the canonical fragment identifier, we cannot use XLINK arc, we cannot use Javascript: this is the big problem in ePub2 and EPUB3: we are still building ebook using internet tools. We'll see if something is gonna change after the last news about W3C and IDPF merge.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

It depends. I do not think the ebook like a book that must be electronic, but I think it like an ebook, something born digital. What is a index? It is a map of some contents "hidden" in ebook and it is a way to access those contents.
Some indexes are built as a one-side way, leaving the ereader the possibility to go back, other are a "two way" links. For example, in "Syria Calling" we have some terms that, from the chapters, moves to Glossary or to Timeline (using icons for this), and have some terms that from Subject Index or Index of Place Names leads to the chapter. In other ebook we build a "two way road", from chapter to Indexes and from Indexes to chapter.

If you want to see a *very* complex index I worked with, you can take a look to "Il ciclo della performance nei comuni" (it a free ebook): it has a lot of nested Indexes and "two way" links.

We cannot use a "go back", as you know there is no "go back" in XHTML, we cannot use in a significative way the canonical fragment identifier, we cannot use XLINK arc, we cannot use Javascript: this is the big problem in ePub2 and EPUB3: we are still building ebook using internet tools. We'll see if something is gonna change after the last news about W3C and IDPF merge.

It's not that I don't think that you (or anyone) cannot create a complex, nested indices; it's how we do that, and do not strand the reader that concerns me.

For example, let's say we have my previously-used example (here at Mobile Read) of a book on Dogs. We have in this an entry, on Irish Setters. In the Index, the following items ALL go to that entry:

Setters, Irish
Long-Coated Dogs;
Hunting Dogs;
Family-suitable Dogs;
Large Dog Breeds;
Dogs that need significant exercise.

All six, let's say, of these items go to the SAME entry.

Now, let's say that I'm Jane, and I'm seeking a dog that will suit my lifestyle, get along with my kids and so forth. So, I've skimmed the book--and now I'm using the Index to help me in my search.

When I use a print book, I have the luxury of sticking a thumb in the Index page I'm on, and flip to the page that I found in that same index. So, in "family-suitable dogs," I see the Irish Setter entry. In print, I flip to page 55; I skim it, and then I flip back to that same Index entry, and move on to the next dog in that list that catches my eye in the Family-friendly Index list. Right?

But now I'm in the ebook. I go to Family-suitable dogs, and I see Irish Setters. I click the link, to go to the Irish Setter entry.

How do I get BACK to "Family Suitable Dogs?"

To me, this is the single biggest stumbling block in creating two-way linked eBooks. It's not the simple stuff, linking from Index entry 1 to page X. It's the a) multi-page items (e.g., "page 75-80"), and b) how you solve the multi-targeted landing page/item.

To me, that's the biggest single issue.

Hitch

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by Hitch

To me, this is the single biggest stumbling block in creating two-way linked eBooks. It's not the simple stuff, linking from Index entry 1 to page X. It's the a) multi-page items (e.g., "page 75-80"), and b) how you solve the multi-targeted landing page/item.

To me, that's the biggest single issue.

Hitch

As I wrote before, we can not use the three tools that handle those situation: CFI, XLINK, Javascript. We are forced to delegate the "back" option to the eReader program or device.

In some ebook I resolved the b) situation multiplying the landing places with same content but different "link back" reference (the paper for ebook is free). In your example I could have different Irish Settings entry with same content but different link to return to the correct starting href (Long-Coated Dogs; Hunting Dogs; Family-suitable Dogs... et ceterae), but oblivious this is not a thing I can do in every ebook.

Or, in EPUB3, I can radically change the structure and conception of the index-book, building it as an interactive query that shows in the same page the contents to which it refers, as would a database query, not an index.

But, I understand your point.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

As I wrote before, we can not use the three tools that handle those situation: CFI, XLINK, Javascript. We are forced to delegate the "back" option to the eReader program or device.

In some ebook I resolved the b) situation multiplying the landing places with same content but different "link back" reference (the paper for ebook is free). In your example I could have different Irish Settings entry with same content but different link to return to the correct starting href (Long-Coated Dogs; Hunting Dogs; Family-suitable Dogs... et ceterae), but oblivious this is not a thing I can do in every ebook.

Or, in EPUB3, I can radically change the structure and conception of the index-book, building it as an interactive query that shows in the same page the contents to which it refers, as would a database query, not an index.

But, I understand your point.

In ePub 3, you make this interactive eBook and I go and load it on my Kobo using whatever version RMDSK Kobo is using currently. Will it work? I load this ePub 3 on my Sony Reader and it won't work. Is there any way to sell it as an ePub 3 saying it is not ePub 2 compatible? Not that I know of currently. That's the problem. The problem with ePub 3 is that is that rubbish they added in which is why ePub 3 has not been all that widely accepted.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In ePub 3, you make this interactive eBook and I go and load it on my Kobo using whatever version RMDSK Kobo is using currently. Will it work? I load this ePub 3 on my Sony Reader and it won't work. Is there any way to sell it as an ePub 3 saying it is not ePub 2 compatible? Not that I know of currently. That's the problem. The problem with ePub 3 is that is that rubbish they added in which is why ePub 3 has not been all that widely accepted.

I do not understand your point. If I want to be read with old devices I have to use only ePub2. But ePub2 is not the "state of the art" in digital publishing: it is *really* a poor standard. EPUB3 also is not the "state of the art", but when I build an ebook I have to think if the content I want to communicate to users could work better in EPUB3, if the users I'm thinking of uses tablet or desktop.
I do not love EPUB3, but I do not love ePub2. If e-ink eraders could have a good support of EPUB3 I could build more interesting ebooks.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem with ePub 3 is that is that rubbish they added in which is why ePub 3 has not been all that widely accepted.

Once again: absolutely untrue. EPUB3 HAS been widely accepted. They sell them all the time on Google Play, Kobo and B&N. They're used to create Kindlebooks. They're sold on iBooks. Shall I go on?

Just because they added a lot of extraneous stuff to the standard does not mean every bit of it has to be utilized to warrant the EPUB3 standard's very existence. Hell ... most commercial EPUB2s don't leverage all that the standard has to offer. So why assume the EPUB3 has to? Your dogmatic position that EPUB3 is somehow anathema to "good" publishing and/or ebook making is based entirely on irrational fear of change. Move on. It'll be OK. Woosah, baby.