Going Rogue

[kazbates]

By the way, my neighbor has been trying to sell her house for over two years. People are interested in buying it, but there are very few lenders out there unless you have enough money for a 10-20% down payment. The government gave these banks billions of dollars, hoping that they would stimulate the economy by lending it out. Instead, the banks are hording the money in case there is another down turn in the economy. Child, please!!

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Ea

I can understand it's not the same scale, and I hope you understand I'm not proposing the same system for USA. That would be ludicrous. It's the feeling of fear of the idea of governmental influence as it has been expressed here (among other places) that leaves me - to be honest - bewildered. And if the reason for that fear, as it was explained, is the British government as it looked like in the late 18th century, then I'm even more

Let me try again by quoting myself from the last post.

"And everybody is certain that their way of life is the only one that matters, and willing to cause as much collateral damage in other peoples lives (that they don't even acknowledge exist (or matter)) as it takes to implement their vision of how people's lives should be run?"

That's why the fear of the idea of government in the US. Nobody trusts that people with other moral/ethical/political viewpoints will limit the reach of their implementations. Think that's silly? Or limited to the founding of the nation in the late 18th century? Well....

In 1920, after intense 30 years of lobbying, the possession and consumption of alcohol was made illegal in the US. Unfortunately, a majority of Americans drank alcohol. They're still making movies about the criminality spawned by that law. Repealed 13 years later.

From 1933 to 1975, it was illegal to own gold in the US (other than jewelry sold at a price at least 10 times the price of the gold contained.) Why? A president made a decision. Period.

Apartheid? Yep, legally sanctioned from the 1890's into the 1960's.

Shall I go on?

All these, and many others, are reasons why Americans fear government. Look at many of the closed minded comments in this thread. Would you like to live under their implementation? I wouldn't.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by kazbates

That's it in a nutshell. The difference between people who think they should be "taken care of" and those who take care of themselves. That's really at the core of the healthcare debate here. I don't want the government to take care of me other than emergency services, education, and military. When my husband was out of work, we relied on my paltry teacher's salary and our savings. We paid for our own health insurance (by the way, I do believe that ALL insurance is a scam and that the insurance industry is what really has a strangle hold on this country) and took care of our own needs. We cut out everything that wasn't essential. That's what responsible people do.

The problem is the definition of "essential".

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kazbates

Calling her uneducated is unfair and malicious. She has a college degree, in Journalism. Does that make all journalists unintelligent?

Just about any idiot can get "a college degree" these days. It is little more difficult than an high school diploma. You just have to show up for classes and make the minimum effort into making passing grades. Being educated in no way needs to be connected to training for a profession which is what most college degrees are. Being educated is being knowledgeable in a wide scope of areas-- even ones that do not have a direct effect on your daily life-- and having a thirst for continued learning. I can tell that Palin lacks that by the words coming out of her (NOT Tina Fey's) mouth.

So she managed to make it (over 5 years and 6 schools) to a 4-year degree in a light-weight subject, just like many millions of other Americans. How does that make her stand out to lead the free world? When I mean educated, I mean people like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine and all the other educated people who helped frame the philosophy and the fact of this country. I mean intellectual giants with deep thoughts and advanced educations. People who had vastly less technology, vastly more difficult travel opportunities, and vastly less access to books than Palin had even though she was in Alaska and yet they learned far, far, far more than Palin ever has or (unless she changes radically) ever will. Any one of those men could run circles around almost all elected representatives in the US over the past century. Comparing them to Sarah Palin? She isn't even worthy to shine their shoes.

[kazbates]

Another example, California just passed a law limiting the screen size of the television that you can buy because it can be an energy hog. Talk about government abusing power. . .Be afraid. . .Be VERY afraid.

[guyanonymous]

I'd have to be paid far more than $9 to read her words.

edit: oh...they actually want you to pay for it?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kazbates

Another example, California just passed a law limiting the screen size of the television that you can buy because it can be an energy hog. Talk about government abusing power. . .Be afraid. . .Be VERY afraid.

Sorry, Kazbates, not accurate. They passed a law limiting how much electricity a Television could use and be sold in California that was under 58" (150 cm) in size. TVs over 58" were exempt so all the Hollywood types could have their home theaters.....

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kazbates

Another example, California just passed a law limiting the screen size of the television that you can buy because it can be an energy hog. Talk about government abusing power. . .Be afraid. . .Be VERY afraid.

And that's at the STATE level, it's not just the Feds.

[desertgrandma]

Here's the link. Unbelievable that sets over 58" are exempted. Well, not really.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/...=HFMostPopular

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Just about any idiot can get "a college degree" these days. It is little more difficult than an high school diploma. You just have to show up for classes and make the minimum effort into making passing grades. Being educated in no way needs to be connected to training for a profession which is what most college degrees are. Being educated is being knowledgeable in a wide scope of areas-- even ones that do not have a direct effect on your daily life-- and having a thirst for continued learning. I can tell that Palin lacks that by the words coming out of her (NOT Tina Fey's) mouth.

So she managed to make it (over 5 years and 6 schools) to a 4-year degree in a light-weight subject, just like many millions of other Americans. How does that make her stand out to lead the free world? When I mean educated, I mean people like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine and all the other educated people who helped frame the philosophy and the fact of this country. I mean intellectual giants with deep thoughts and advanced educations. People who had vastly less technology, vastly more difficult travel opportunities, and vastly less access to books than Palin had even though she was in Alaska and yet they learned far, far, far more than Palin ever has or (unless she changes radically) ever will. Any one of those men could run circles around almost all elected representatives in the US over the past century. Comparing them to Sarah Palin? She isn't even worthy to shine their shoes.

I am assuming that you feel you have the right to make these kinds of comments because you are far more intelligent than the "any idiots" who have gotten college degrees. I have two college degrees. One in Computer Science and one in Education. Which one of those do you feel lacks "weight"? By reducing her accomplishment, you reduce those of anyone who has ever received a degree in that field, even some of those people contributing to sources you've quoted.

I know nothing about Mrs. Palin's actual intelligence, sound bites from the media not withstanding, or yours for that matter, so I don't make disparaging remarks about it. Having said that, it is very obvious from the sources that you have quoted that you tend to receive the majority of your information from Liberal sources which, to me, indicates that your viewpoint's would be biased.

I will grant you that there have been people with great intellect who have been instrumental in the foundation of this country. However, I do not place them in the category of demagogue nor do I think that they were the standard to which we should all adhere. They were men (and women) with flaws and idiosynchrosies and, at times, radical viewpoints. I'm sure that in their time there were those who considered them "idiots" and not worthy to shine someone's shoes, too.

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Sorry, Kazbates, not accurate. They passed a law limiting how much electricity a Television could use and be sold in California that was under 58" (150 cm) in size. TVs over 58" were exempt so all the Hollywood types could have their home theaters.....

That's what I get for reading something too quickly! I stand corrected. Thanks, RSE

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

And yes. I believe we have a large percentage of people who believe the government should take care of them, from health insurance, to welfare, to bailing them out of houses they never should have bought in the first place, because they knew they couldn't afford them.

These are usually the same people that complain that taxes are to high and the government doesn't do enough for them.

Originally Posted by kazbates

That's it in a nutshell. The difference between people who think they should be "taken care of" and those who take care of themselves. That's really at the core of the healthcare debate here.

I kind of disagree with this. The idea is not to "give" everyone heath care. The goal is to make health care affordable and available to everyone.

I do think to much emfasis though has been on the "public option" and "government takeover" and on insurance... rather than on solving the root problem of the cost of health care. And not the answer isn't tort refom... we have that in Florida and my heath insurance and other costs has still gone up each year.

BOb

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Ea

Yees.... but that was King George's government of over 200 years ago. I wouldn't want myself to live under a government as it was in Denmark at that time. But things have evolved quite a bit since then - to put it mildly. In my 'world', I see my government serving me, or us - it's not them against me or us. That's why I don't understand the fear, it seems groundless.

maybe fear is not quite correct. it should probably be trust. and I should have included that first. I used to have a bumper sticker that read;

I LOVE MY COUNTRY, IT'S THE GOVERNMENT I DON'T TRUST

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

She had every opportunity to speak for herself, and when she did, she made it blindingly obvious that she didn’t have a clue regarding foreign policy, among a long list of other topics. She and she alone is responsible for the ignorant, nonsensical garbage that spewed and continues to spew forth every time she opens her mouth. The media and/or SNL is not responsible for her downfall – she is – her excuses as to why she came across as an ignorant know nothing are her own, she owns them.

For the record - direct quotes:

ok now, you're just being silly. are you going to continue to PARROT Tina Fey? you are giving great strength to my point that the election became a parody and only existed in not ready for PRIME TIME comedy

"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin, explaining why Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her foreign policy experience, interview with CBS's Katie Couric, Sept. 24, 2008

"They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska." Sarah Palin On her foreign policy insights into Russia, ABC News interview, September 11, 2008.

and the good madam provided the proper sequence of the quotes, in context and everything! before I got back to the thread;

Katie Couric did ask the question why does the closeness of Russia to Alaska enhances her foreign policy credentials but she was asked another question before SP could finish her answer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...in;contentBody
I can see the Atlantic Ocean from my back deck, but believe it or not, that doesn't make me a marine biologist.

fascinating profession! do you have a specialty?


As for Harmon, the self described “authority”, well, he’s as blind to reality as you are, apparently. *snip*



An excerpt:

And none of it matters, so long as you remember a few months before Election Day to offer them a two-bit caricature culled from some cutting-room-floor episode of Roseanne as part of your presidential ticket. And if she's a good enough likeness of a loudmouthed Middle American archetype, as Sarah Palin is, John Q. Public will drop his giant-size bag of Doritos in gratitude, wipe the Sizzlin' Picante dust from his lips and rush to the booth to vote for her. Not because it makes sense, or because it has a chance of improving his life or anyone else's, but simply because it appeals to the low-humming narcissism that substitutes for his personality, because the image on TV reminds him of the mean, brainless slob he sees in the mirror every morning.

you are SO eloquently proving my point (or should I say *our* point as you seem to be making a good case for it!) of the FACT that the entertainment industry took over this last election
Sarah Palin is a symbol of everything that is wrong with the modern United States. As a representative of our political system, she's a new low in reptilian villainy, the ultimate cynical masterwork of puppeteers like Karl Rove. But more than that, she is a horrifying symbol of how little we ask for in return for the total surrender of our political power. Not only is Sarah Palin a fraud, she's the tawdriest, most half-assed fraud imaginable, 20 floors below the lowest common denominator, a character too dumb even for daytime TV — and this country is going to eat her up, cheering her every step of the way. All because most Americans no longer have the energy to do anything but lie back and allow ourselves to be jacked off by the calculating thieves who run this grasping consumer paradise we call a nation.

Ok, you're just being slimy and innapropriate now

Originally Posted by kazbates

The idea of the original system of government that was established by the founding fathers, where there were strong state governments and an overseeing federal government that kept the states together (providing services like the military, etc.) was to keep from having a huge and cumbersome bureaucracy that no longer focused on the people. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. The politicians and special interests have stomped all over the Constitution. Our Federal government has gotten too big. The Republicans were supposed to downsize, they didn't. The Democrats are all for bigger government. Neither party has the people's best interests at heart. It's all about power.

back to Jeffersonian Philosophy... he also firmly believed that government, even to the point of revolution needed to re-invent itself periodically. it becomes stale and hackneyed. perhaps we are due for a significant adjustment

*snip*
People haven't forgotten. Our politicians have forgotten.

Originally Posted by kazbates

As to the original topic:

I must say that I'm surprised by the vitriol of the left leaning participants in this thread. I think Joe Biden is a bit of a twit and has made more trouble for President Obama than he has helped him. Having said that, I wouldn't take to posting ridiculing and negative comments if he were to publish a new book. I would just ignore it.

my biggest fear given who and what this President is, is that Biden will in fact become President

Originally Posted by Ea

I can understand it's not the same scale, and I hope you understand I'm not proposing the same system for USA. That would be ludicrous. It's the feeling of fear of the idea of governmental influence as it has been expressed here (among other places) that leaves me - to be honest - bewildered. And if the reason for that fear, as it was explained, is the British government as it looked like in the late 18th century, then I'm even more

awww! but you see... this is an intrinsic part of our government, part and parcel of our Bill of Rights, and what makes us who we are!

Originally Posted by Madam Broshkina

When quoting the interview with Katie Couric you stated that Sarah Palin was responding to a question concerning her foreign policy experience. The quote which you sited came from an differnent question that was asked. Plus you did not include the whole quote just so you could portray SP in a negative light.


Katie Couric did ask the question why does the closeness of Russia to Alaska enhances her foreign policy credentials but she was asked another question before SP could finish her answer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...in;contentBody
thank you for pullingthat out and sharing it!

Originally Posted by 93terp

And the best example of that, in my opinion, was the Terry Schiavo debacle a few years back. Conservatives were absolutely tripping over themselves to rush right into the middle of that medical decision, telling Terry's husband that he had no right to make end of life decisions for his wife, that only the likes of Tom Delay, George W. Bush and Bill Frist were qualified to make that decision (because they - conservatives - represent "the party of life". Give me a break!). As I recall, W flew back from Crawdad in the middle of the night to sign "emergency legislation" regarding the situation. Hyprocrisy in it's most absurd form.

this is, one of the major problems of the Republican party at thi juncture. not only the whole "right to life" bit, but the continued union with the conservative christians. they SERIOUSLY need to get out of that bed

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Just about any idiot can get "a college degree" these days. It is little more difficult than an high school diploma. You just have to show up for classes and make the minimum effort into making passing grades. do tell? what is your non-idiotic degree in? I can't tell you how incredibly amazed I was when a newly minted business degree graduate bragged to me that he had not written a SINGLE term paper in the course of his studies. and this fellow did not get his degree online... it was one of the biggies out of the southBeing educated in no way needs to be connected to training for a profession which is what most college degrees are. Being educated is being knowledgeable in a wide scope of areas-- even ones that do not have a direct effect on your daily life-- and having a thirst for continued learning. I can tell that Palin lacks that by the words coming out of her (NOT Tina Fey's) mouth.

different things sound differently to our ears. southerners sound to me like uneducated backwoods hicks. I lived in Alaska for my early years and that particular dialect sounds normal to me. go to Germany and have a Hessian tell you what a Bavarian sounds like

So she managed to make it (over 5 years and 6 schools) to a 4-year degree in a light-weight subject, just like many millions of other Americans. How does that make her stand out to lead the free world? When I mean educated, I mean people like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine and all the other educated people who helped frame the philosophy and the fact of this country. I mean intellectual giants with deep thoughts and advanced educations. *snip* what's your criteria then? how many books read? how many intellectual discourses coursed? did it ever occur to you that most folks simply aren't giving the woman a half a chance to be heard?.

wow.... simply wow!

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

These are usually the same people that complain that taxes are to high and the government doesn't do enough for them.



I kind of disagree with this. The idea is not to "give" everyone heath care. The goal is to make health care affordable and available to everyone.

I do think to much emfasis though has been on the "public option" and "government takeover" and on insurance... rather than on solving the root problem of the cost of health care. And not the answer isn't tort refom... we have that in Florida and my heath insurance and other costs has still gone up each year.

BOb

I absolutely agree with this! If this were possible, I would be standing on the Capitol steps cheering them on. Unfortunately, I have no faith in the politicians and think they and their special interests will make a mess of it.

What really made me crazy in Florida was the amount of money I had to pay for homeowner's insurance. In the eight years I lived there, I could have bought a swank Mercedes with what I paid in insurance premiums.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by kazbates

That's it in a nutshell. The difference between people who think they should be "taken care of" and those who take care of themselves. That's really at the core of the healthcare debate here. I don't want the government to take care of me other than emergency services, education, and military. When my husband was out of work, we relied on my paltry teacher's salary and our savings. We paid for our own health insurance (by the way, I do believe that ALL insurance is a scam and that the insurance industry is what really has a strangle hold on this country) and took care of our own needs. We cut out everything that wasn't essential. That's what responsible people do.

The government wouldn’t be “taking care of you” – it would simply administer a plan using tax dollars – that’s it, in a nutshell. Instead of paying an insurance company, your “premium” would be paid in the form of taxes. This is a simplification of course, but so is the idea that a government administered healthcare system is some sort of giant freebee handout to deadbeats. The government isn't “giving” you healthcare, any more than it is giving you free roads and bridges.

If you and others are so distrustful of government, might I suggest a move to Somalia? There you will find a delightful little example of what it’s like to live without all that dastardly government interference, and all those freely available, government “handouts.”