Microsoft and the Xbox

[Lo Zeno]

Originally Posted by stustaff

Its one of the very clear things that DawnFalcon has tried to explain if i buy something from a shop and its a physical product in a box then I am buying that product not a license no matter what the EULA or box may say.

And what I keep asking but apparently nobody can tell me is how should a licence for a DVD be sold if not by including the document inside a boxed DVD in a shop, then.

[DawnFalcon]

If it says things like ((1) Licence) on the box, if it refers to a URL where you can review the licence before purchase, if it's set in a different section of the shop to the one where items are sold...

(Yes, it's technically possible that the same product bought in different places and under different conditions could be construed to be a sale in one place and a licence in another. Nosebleed!)

In practice, they don't do these things because it'd torpedo sales.

Also, even in America, it's not clear-cut.

[dmaul1114]

This discussion is just going to go nowhere.

You've got some people (largely outside of the US) that are fine with more socialist policies and having governments have a lot of leeway in regulating businesses. They think loser hackers should be able to mod their consoles, including mod them to steal games, and the company should be forced to be allowed to let people with these hacked consoles access THEIR network.

Then you have others that prefer free markets and letting businesses set up their own models and letting customers decide their fates buy either supporting or not supporting the company and their policies. With some limited amount of regulation of course to keep companies from ripping consumers off.

The two sides aren't going to change their minds as it's a fundamental difference in beliefs about what the role of government in the market should be. Not to mention all the different laws in different countries which no one here is familiar with beyond some knowledge of the laws in their own country.

For the US, there's no problem with the type of EULA MS uses. Maybe their is in other countries. In that case MS needs to either adapt or just stop selling in those countries. The majority of 360 sales are in the US anyway. Plus then I wouldn't run into annoying foreigners with laggy across the globe connections on Live.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

This discussion is just going to go nowhere.

You've got some people (largely outside of the US) that are fine with more socialist policies and having governments have a lot of leeway in regulating businesses. They think loser hackers should be able to mod their consoles, including mod them to steal games, and the company should be forced to be allowed to let people with these hacked consoles access THEIR network.

I take offense to the "loser hacker" remark. I'm a hacker, but an ethical one (note, we're really not rare). I fully acknowledge I'm voiding warranties and any other support when I modify something, and what I modify isn't for anything illegal. My 360 that I use for gaming sits unmodded. My original xbox however will never see XBL again, and has new use doing media center duty. My GBA SP that I use for homebrew, is all legit. The Wall-e Toy on my bench getting an Arduino placed in it to expand it's functions, warranty voided and will never hassle the manufacturer. The myriad of other things I've hacked never once have caused issue for a company, and do nothing illegal. The most they do is allow me to not buy something, because I made something fulfill the function of that item.

Don't paint us all with the same brush because the bad ones get all the attention.

[DawnFalcon]

It's even more amusing because I don't even oppose Microsoft's right to kick actively-modded Xboxes off live, I just object to their particular action as counter-productive.

But no, "loser hacker".

[dmaul1114]

Sorry Hellmark, I didn't mean that to come across so broadly. It was directed at those who do whine about it, or think companies shouldn't be able to restict usage of modded devices on THEIR networks etc.

I don't see why anyone mods anything. I only buy things that do what I need them to do, and have better things to do with my time than mod crap. But different strokes for different folks. I have no issues with people that mod stuff and aren't using it to pirate or cheat and who don't bitch about the clearly stated consequences of doing so.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

...
You've got some people (largely outside of the US) that are fine with more socialist policies....
...

For the US, there's no problem with the type of EULA MS uses. Maybe their is in other countries. ...

... The majority of 360 sales are in the US anyway. ...

Wow! Mind-boggling....

First, 2/3rds of all XBOX sales are outside of the US.

Second, technically, EULAs are generally accepted as contracts in the European Community, while in the US they are recognized as such in only two of the dozen Circuits.

Third, you keep throwing around the word "socialism," but you seem to totally miss the point of individual rights, which can be trampled almost as easily by omnipotent multinationals, as by totalitarian governments.

The one accurate statement you made, was that "This discussion is just going to go nowhere."

[dmaul1114]

The notion of individual rights being trampled by a company producing a luxury item like a video game console is just absurd.

It's a luxury item and there are multiple companies make them. If you think one company tramples your consumer rights by not letting you mod your console--then don't buy their product and buy one of the others. If none of them fit your needs, then don't buy any and stick with PC games as PCs are designed to be customized, able to be built by users etc., while game consoles are intended to just be bought, hooked up and played as is.

But no one's rights are being trampled on here. No one has a right to play on X-box live. It's Microsofts network and they can choose who they allow on it, and the rules for getting banned are pretty clearly stated. At the most, maybe they should be required to refund the remaining time on a persons account when they are banned. Other than that, the rules are there and people can follow them or lose their PRIVILEGE of having access to X-box Live.

There are no rights involved in this case. I agree there needs to be watchdogs over corporations who look out for consumers rights. But anyone complaining about the Live bannings is just a whiner if they think anyone's rights have been violated. It's a companies proprietary network for online gaming. They have every right to kick off people who mod consoles and the other reasons for bannings (cheating, user complaints for profanity etc. etc.). Again, access to the service is a privilege, not a right. Stick by the rules or GTFO.

And with that, I'm throwing a couple more of y'all on ignore and staying out of this thread. Mods must be on vacation to have left it up this long since it doesn't have a damn thing to do with ebooks.

[DawnFalcon]

"It's a companies proprietary network for online gaming."

No, it's not just that. It's also an online marketplace, is involved in accessing other media and third party services, and there are changes to the console as-owned when "banned from Live", including the inability to install to hard disks or transfer saves or profiles off the xbox.

Just...making sure the full consequences are listed. Also, account bans for other offences have totally different consequences - you lose any material linked to the account, but can make a new one on the same console.

And where's your making a point in other threads about how people shouldn't crack DRM, shouldn't use proxies or set their location to other countries? Same principle, they're abusing services and products in ways the sellers didn't intend? Or is this just limited to gaming?

"Stick by the rules or GTFO."

Ah, such a wonderful quote for later use.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

And where's your making a point in other threads about how people shouldn't crack DRM, shouldn't use proxies or set their location to other countries? Same principle, they're abusing services and products in ways the sellers didn't intend? Or is this just limited to gaming?

I'm completely against all that stuff as well. And now truly done with the thread (and adding you on ignore) but wanted to clarify that as well. I support all companies right to protect their product in the digital age where it can be pirated and spread around to people so easily. So I have no real issues with DRM.

[joblack]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The check is being made remotely, so it must be being done by taking a "checksum" of the firmware, or something like that. Replacing a fan would not affect that.

No checksum of the firmware because the patched firmware has already fake authentication methods included (so you can't ask the firmware methods to reply in a real matter).

Nobody knows how they got it out - my idea is that they do some timing measures. And some idiots have played Call of Duty - Moder Warfare 2 one week before release online ...