Concerns About Sony's Religious Intolerance

[ShellShock]

Originally Posted by Valloric

The Big Bang created both space and time (the spacetime continuum). So there was literally no "before" before the Big Bang. Time itself did not exist.

This is an intrinsically difficult concept to grasp for most people.

No kidding!

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Valloric

The Big Bang created both space and time (the spacetime continuum). So there was literally no "before" before the Big Bang. Time itself did not exist.

This is an intrinsically difficult concept to grasp for most people.

Ah, but, if the ideas regarding the 16th dimension and parallel dimensions prove to be correct (and they are mathematically intriguing) then the BB might just be a blow out from another universe. In which case, you only have the lack of time and matter in this universe that began with the Big Bang.

Further, the speck that caused the BB still had to come from somewhere. Unless matter and energy are simply allowed to spring out of nowhere, which is not something that I have seen supported by any science.

There are very few concepts that are intrinsically difficult for me to grasp. But then that's probably because I've got a number of theoretical physicists in the family.

Oh, and PS .... stated with all due respect if you happen to be a theoretically physicist. If so, what is your main sub-branch of interest? I've got one first cousin who works on the cutting edge of string theory; another who is working on chaos theory. My brother is technically a physicist, but he has gone in house and is working on practical application.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

My plumber came over today (sadly, I need a new dishwasher), and that always leads us to discussions on religion and faith.

Ok, I reiterate... you gotta get out more.

BOb

BTW: The Catholic/Christian answer is, God always was and always will be.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Do you really mean "ask Stephen Hawking" as if I'm supposed to trundle on over to the phone and dial?? I've read his work, however, I don't happen to remember a distinction between turtles and elephants vis a vis the structure of faith. It's probably in there, however, I do know that the elephants parable dates from about 400 BCE.

If you had checked wikipedia were the quote was from you had seen that it was a quote from a book by Stephen Hawking. Yes I was perhaps too unclear but I gave the source if I remember correctly.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Ok, I reiterate... you gotta get out more.

BOb

BTW: The Catholic/Christian answer is, God always was and always will be.

And, I honestly think, that an initial universe (possibly not the one we are currently living in) always was and always will be.

I don't happen to subscribe to the theory that there was absolutely nothing, and then there was something. I happen to think that there always was something, in some form (even if it was just dark matter and dark energy ... which is turning out to be a whole lot of something we can't see), and that the BB was made up of something that was somewhere, and then slipped into here.

And, of course, I realize what the Catholic/Christian answer would be. I've got a few ministers in the family too .... large family ... very diverse bunch.

[Cthulhu]

Ahem:

At Ricky & tompe:

Find it deliciously ironic that you engage in this debate over elephants and turtles in a thread that has taken on religious tones.

The ultimate point is that both are false, have been proven false, and are equally ridiculous. Kinda like say, any organised spiritual system of worship/metaphysical belief.

At Gideon-
You seem on the verge of reductionism just as much as Dawkins. What many take away from the book, and something I saw him doing in a Booknotes bit on C-Span, is the sense that there is hope beyond the cult. I dare say that carrying his latest book around in a religious community is akin to sporting a pink triangle on one's clothes or a rainbow sticker on a person's car. There are appendices that provide footnotes and contact/support information for recovering believers.

As for moderate believers being enjoined for the common good with non-believers--

There seem to be few western religions that do not exhort minions to create more. There is the spiritual slavery of a religious upbringing for children, then there is the proselytizing, which in years past has been violent (and sadly in some cases, still is quite violent).


I think that people are a whole are vapid, violent, and repugnant, but a person on their own can be a wondrous engine for ingenuity and good.

Truly wish that charlatans and petty-minded control freaks had one fewer bastion with which to deceive others. See, to my mind, if there were no religion, all the folks in the US asking for money would be forced to admit that they are greedy, lying opportunists, people on the eastern Mediterranean would have to come clean about being pig-headed bullies who cannot let anything lie in the past, and the kids one block over from them would need reveal that they are repressed, dysfunctional idiots who cannot take a joke.


Take away religion, and all you have done is taken away an excuse.

At least that is a start.

[RickyMaveety]

[QUOTE=Cthulhu;337265]Ahem:

At Ricky & tompe:

Find it deliciously ironic that you engage in this debate over elephants and turtles in a thread that has taken on religious tones.

/QUOTE]

I know that Cthulhu. And the thread actually started with religious tones. The elephant/turtle debate is simply one that sort of took off on a tangent and had nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with an explanation of the concept of "faith."

That's really all that was about. Not certain there is anything ridiculous about someone's faith, however. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Valloric]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Further, the speck that caused the BB still had to come from somewhere. Unless matter and energy are simply allowed to spring out of nowhere, which is not something that I have seen supported by any science.

Now you're asking where was the Big Bang. Same answer as with "what was before it". There was no where, and there was no before.

Sadly, this goes outside the scope of modern science. And I doubt we will ever reach a point when we can say "Yeah, we get the Big Bang". It is very fertile ground for any religion, and honestly, anything they can come up with is just as likely to be true as anything we can (with regards to the Big Bang, not in general, of course).

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

There are very few concepts that are intrinsically difficult for me to grasp. But then that's probably because I've got a number of theoretical physicists in the family.

I wasn't talking about you personally. Didn't mean any offense.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Oh, and PS .... stated with all due respect if you happen to be a theoretically physicist. If so, what is your main sub-branch of interest? I've got one first cousin who works on the cutting edge of string theory; another who is working on chaos theory. My brother is technically a physicist, but he has gone in house and is working on practical application.

I'm in Computer Science, but I have a few physicists in the family, too. A nuclear (uncle), theoretical (cousin #1) and an astrophysicist (cousin #2). Interesting people.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Valloric

Now you're asking where was the Big Bang. Same answer as with "what was before it". There was no where, and there was no before.

That seems hard to grasp for people. I have seen otherwise intelligent people argue that something must have started BB and therefore there is a first cause which they then proceeded to call a god.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

OK, all this talk about the big bang has put the following lyrics into my mind:

The Big Bang.
The ultimate hero of low frequency.
The divine intergalactical bass drum connecting the tribes of our solar system.

Yello - Solar Driftwood

[Valloric]

Originally Posted by tompe

That seems hard to grasp for people. I have seen otherwise intelligent people argue that something must have started BB and therefore there is a first cause which they then proceeded to call a god.

Most religion is caused (and created) by fear of the unknown. Fear of dying. Fear of being alone. Fear of an unjust world.

When will people realize that being afraid is not a crime?

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Valloric

Now you're asking where was the Big Bang. Same answer as with "what was before it". There was no where, and there was no before.

Sadly, this goes outside the scope of modern science. And I doubt we will ever reach a point when we can say "Yeah, we get the Big Bang". It is very fertile ground for any religion, and honestly, anything they can come up with is just as likely to be true as anything we can (with regards to the Big Bang, not in general, of course).



I wasn't talking about you personally. Didn't mean any offense.



I'm in Computer Science, but I have a few physicists in the family, too. A nuclear (uncle), theoretical (cousin #1) and an astrophysicist (cousin #2). Interesting people.

Ummmm .... no I'm not asking any question. I am not asking where or when with regard to the Big Bang. It is up to debate about whether there was (in some other universe) a where or when that resulted in the Big Bang in this universe. That is not a religious question, it is not a spiritual question, it is a question of theoretical physics.

I have a view on the topic. That was a very brief summation of my view. Not a question for you or for anyone else. Really, I understand that your view is different. I grasp your view. I simply happen to disagree with it.

Everyone should have at least a few physicists in the family. It makes for interesting meals. Do some reading on string theory, and you might understand where my view arises. It does have a basis, although admittedly only a basis in theory. However, I just tossed it out for the hell of it, not because I don't understand that there are physicists who do not agree with the multiple universe and additional dimensions (beyond the traditional ones associated with space/time) posited by the physicists whose arguments I happen to find rather compelling.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Valloric

Most religion is caused (and created) by fear of the unknown. Fear of dying. Fear of being alone. Fear of an unjust world.

When will people realize that being afraid is not a crime?

Gee, I don't know. About the time they accept that not everyone is afraid of the unknown and a lot of us happen to like the thought of a vast unknown.

The bigger, the better as far as I'm concerned.

[montsnmags]

Originally Posted by Gaurnim

Disclaimer, just so you know where I stand :
I'm profoundly atheist, but I try to respect other people's views.

For an interesting take on this question, based on game theory, you can have a look at Pascal's wager :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

I will not make that wager, but I find this opinion very interesting.
...

A Pratchett interjection:

"This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts..."
-- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)

Also, for Big Bangers, and Multiversers, an interesting New Scientist link:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-universe.html

Cheers,
Marc ("God, schmod, I want my monkey man!")

[RickyMaveety]

Thanks for the article link, Marc!!

It actually had a quote about what I was thinking: "It is generally thought that our universe began as a tiny patch in some pre-existing space-time forming a bubble which then underwent a burst of exponential expansion."

Although, honestly, I had no idea that the idea had general acceptance. Makes me feel a little better somehow, to know that the thought of a pre-existing space-time (as in prior to the bang) is not entirely for those of us considered crack-pots.