Do you pirate books and why?

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's not a matter of law. Geo restrictions are a matter of contract agreements between publishers and distributors--bookstores aren't held by them (which is why Amazon can ship pbooks anywhere). Somewhere in the contract dealing, the publishers decided that a sale for digital content takes place at the location of the buyer, not the seller--and that "location" would be defined as "the address of the bank associated with the credit card" and/or "location defined by IP address," regardless of where the person actually is.

Geo restrictions have nothing to do with the buyer's location; a person living in the UK who visits the US on a vacation can't buy US-only ebooks through their Amazon account.

And there's no laws against selling ebooks to any location in the world--just contract arrangements; selling a publisher's books in places they haven't authorized them is breach of contract. It can be a breach of copyright law, if someone else owns the rights in that area--but a lot of geo restrictions are enforced by publishers who own international rights, but are hoping to set up contracts in other countries. They refuse to sell in order to offer those rights to the highest bidder.

There's no law that forbids bypassing geo restrictions, although it's maybe (probably?) a violation of the TOS of the seller, which means that if you get caught, your account can be frozen.

No it is a matter of law. The Publisher cannot sell a book it is not licensed to sell. So the e-book is not available in Australia. If it were a paper book you can order the book online from Amazon US and it is mailed to you no problem. The law in the US says that the point of sale is Amazon's Warehouse so a book published in the US by a Publisher contracted to sell only in the US can be sold to someone in Australia.

Electronic Media is sold differently based on current law. The law says that the point of contact is your computer. If your computer is identified as being Australian you cannot buy an e-book published by a US Publisher from Amazon US because you are in Australia.

If the law is changed so that the point of sale for electronic media is the location of the server and not the location of your computer you should be able to by an e-book the same way you can buy the paper book.

This is the same silliness that caused increased VAT for many countries on electronic media because electronic media is dealt with differently legally then hard media. So E-books are taxed more heavily in many countries then the paper book.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

There's one big reason why I don't like pretending I'm somewhere else (although I do it when it's easy enough for me to manage and as long as Amazon turns a blind eye to it) - I feel somewhat guilty over my government not getting the VAT.

This is less of a moral problem with georestricted books I can't get otherwise (because if I'm not allowed to buy it, my government won't get the VAT anyway), but... Well.

Thing is, once you've learned to bypass georestrictions, it becomes rather tempting to do it also for books that are discounted/on sale for $1.99/free for Americans and $14 for the rest of us, doesn't it? I resisted doing that for a year, but with the amount of books I buy... It's not even the middle of February yet and I've already bought books for ~$200 this year (lest anyone think that I do nothing but steal all the time), including a number of preorders not available yet. Had I always been honest in my country settings, this would be at least $50 more.

To which I say who cares? I know Australians who buy all their paper books through the US because the price is a great deal less expensive then the prices in Australia even with shipping. If the government is going to charge so much in tax that it gives you an incentive to shop elsewhere, then the government should change the tax code so that you have an incentive to shop at home.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

If the government is going to charge so much in tax that it gives you an incentive to shop elsewhere, then the government should change the tax code so that you have an incentive to shop at home.

It's not the tax I object to, it's Amazon's surcharge that makes the majority of books on Amazon so much more expensive for me.

I've compared prices with an Austrian friend who hasn't changed his account to Amazon.de but still shops at Amazon.com; we both have to pay the same EU VAT but as Amazon doesn't add the $2 surcharge to the prices he sees, the average traditionally published book is $3-4 cheaper for him. Granted, in some cases there's probably also the issue of the publisher setting different prices, but overall, I doubt that most UK/US publishers bother to set wildly different prices for customers in different non-English-speaking EU countries.

And it's very obvious with self-published books, where the base price is the same - if the book costs $2.99 for an American, it costs around $3.41 for my Austrian friend ($2.99 + 15% EU VAT) and $5.74 for me ($2.99 + $2 Amazon surcharge + 15% EU VAT on top of book price + Amazon surcharge).

[ProjeKtWEREWOLF]

I have read pirated books in the past; in fact some of my 'to read' books are not legitimate copies. I am a voracious reader and am very very particular, so some of the stuff is preview only, with an intention of buying it if I like it.
I generally have e-book versions of books I have previously bought and no longer have for one reason or another e.g. my Massive collection of Dragonlance and Warhammer novels.
I realise this is illegal and a massive moral grey area. It doesn't keep me up at night because I purchase many many more books than I download.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

It's not the tax I object to, it's Amazon's surcharge that makes the majority of books on Amazon so much more expensive for me.

I've compared prices with an Austrian friend who hasn't changed his account to Amazon.de but still shops at Amazon.com; we both have to pay the same EU VAT but as Amazon doesn't add the $2 surcharge to the prices he sees, the average traditionally published book is $3-4 cheaper for him. Granted, in some cases there's probably also the issue of the publisher setting different prices, but overall, I doubt that most UK/US publishers bother to set wildly different prices for customers in different non-English-speaking EU countries.

And it's very obvious with self-published books, where the base price is the same - if the book costs $2.99 for an American, it costs around $3.41 for my Austrian friend ($2.99 + 15% EU VAT) and $5.74 for me ($2.99 + $2 Amazon surcharge + 15% EU VAT on top of book price + Amazon surcharge).

Just FYI, from what I have read, that charge goes directly to the wireless company in the country of origin (not the US.) There was a big discussion about it being so high in Canada and why it took so long for there to be books available wirelessly in Canada. The end take was that Amazon was negotiating the fees with the wireless company. Some of those fees to some countries have come down since the initial contracts, but in other countries it is still there.

FWIW. I think during the Canada furor, Amazon actually put out an official message, but I never saw any for other countries. Amazon has always said on the US page that they don't charge for the download.

HOWEVER I do know for a fact that the AUTHOR covers that wireless charge in the US when the book is priced between $2.99 and 9.99. It's in my contract. I get my commission minus a download fee (which is quite small and for each book depends on the actual size of the file.) For books under $2.99, Amazon takes a larger cut of the profit, but covers the wireless fee.

[Jaden]

How much does pirating anything really damage the industry, that's what I always wonder...

Not saying that it's okay to pirate anything, but lots of people pirate stuff they would never buy, often because they could not afford to do so.

Even if all of the darknet would suddenly disappear, would the sales really rise that much? People only have that much money to spend... and lots of people would simply stop "collecting" stuff they never read, maybe lend the book they really want to read but can't afford to from the library or a friend, or sell some of their books to get a used copy or trade their books - like they used to do before books where available digitally.

Of course sales might increase... but then again, people who really love an author and want to support them will buy their books anyway, often enough in multiple formats (like signed hardcover to look at, tb to lend to other people, ebook because it's so portable).

I also think that book sale rates are low for the individual author because there are so many books you could read - more than you can afford to buy, much more than you'll have time in your life (lots of them for free legally). And the more people (self)publish their stuff, the less the individual author will be able to sell.

Of course there will always be those who sell lots and lots, like Rowling, but the majority will not sell many books...

[cak3]

Yeah I do. That's because I love reading and in part of the world where my country is, paper-back or hard-cover or digital versions of books, when converted to my currency, cost multiple times or slightly more than what my pocket money is. I wouldn't be reading if I can't pirate them so what's the harm? I'd love to help the authors but I'm not in a financial position to do so.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

HOWEVER I do know for a fact that the AUTHOR covers that wireless charge in the US when the book is priced between $2.99 and 9.99.

To be fair, you split the delivery fee with Amazon. At that price range you get 70% of (price-delivery fee). If you were paying the whole delivery charge, you'd get (70% of price) - delivery fee.

E.g. $5 book with $0.05 delivery fee, you get 70% of ($5.00 - $0.05) = $3.465. If you were paying the whole fee you'd get (70% of $5.00) - 0.05 = $3.45

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Just FYI, from what I have read, that charge goes directly to the wireless company in the country of origin (not the US.)

Which doesn't really fill my heart with joy, considering I have a Wi-Fi only Kindle.

Anyway - (if this is true) - I do realise that it's a lot easier for Amazon to make every single customer in a certain country pay for the 3G of everyone, rather than differentiate between customers with 3G Kindles and everyone else.

I don't know about Canada, but I'm pretty sure that Amazon has never come out and stated, clearly and explicitly (in the other countries), that this is what the surcharge in all those countries where they add it is meant to cover. I've asked their customer service; the response I got was "unfortunately we do not offer any international surcharges" (yes, "bzuh?" was my reaction to that). And they do have "price includes free international delivery" under every single title.

I'd feel a lot less irritated by the surcharge if Amazon was open about it. :-/

(Actually, I'd feel a lot less irritated if Amazon stopped going on about "free international 3G", if it's actually that much of an issue for them, and charged the people with 3G Kindles extra for downloads over 3G. Not only does it appear that I have to pay for the convenience of other people, but I'm also charged extra VAT on that - 15% VAT on, say, $9.99 is, well, less than 15% VAT on $11.99, and it adds up when you buy a lot of books. But a clear, open, honest statement on why they charge it would go a long way.)

... On the other hand, Amazon stopped adding the $2 to free books last October or November. Which, well, I'm not complaining, but it makes one wonder why they don't want customers to pay for the 3G costs of downloading those.

[Joykins]

Copyright law was created for the following reasons:

1. The arts are a public good, the creation of which should be encouraged;
2. Because the arts are a public good, the creators of art should be remunerated for their work, thus motivating them to produce it, and more of it.

That's it. The idea that the creator of art has control of what happens to their work is simply a mechanism to ensure that the creators are compensated for their work. Once an idea--or art--is released into the wild, it takes on a life of its own.

My concern is that current copyright law concentrates on the mechanism to the near-exclusion of the first principle.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Electronic Media is sold differently based on current law. The law says that the point of contact is your computer. If your computer is identified as being Australian you cannot buy an e-book published by a US Publisher from Amazon US because you are in Australia.

Two questions:
1) What law is this? Or "laws," rather, because this is apparently relevant to several different countries. In what country/countries is valid? (Not being snarky; I really would like to see the phrasing of the "digital purchases are presumed to occur at the location of the buyer's computer" law.)

2) If the location of the buyer's computer is what's relevant, why can't someone on vacation in the US buy from US digital stores? I somehow really doubt that the law is "the location of the nearest bank office of the buyer's credit card is considered the location of the purchase."

[ProfCrash]

I know that US law and laws throughout Europe treat electronic media different then print media. That is why you can buy a paper book from Amazon US but not an Ebook. That is why I can buy a paper book from Amazon UK but not an e-book. I am assuming that Australia and other countries have similar laws in place.

Given that most people want to buy from Amazon US, due to the size of the book store, the US law is the relevant law.

I have no idea how the companies know if someone is in the US or overseas on their computers. I am assuming that a part of that is the address associated with a given account and the type of credit card. But I don't pretend to undertand the technical side.

For me arguing that you are going to pirate an e- book because publishers in the US won't see them to you in country X is silly. There are ways around geo restrictions that would allow you to buy the book from Amazon US (or Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Sony and the like.) The author gets paid and it is easier for the Publisher to justify extending another contract to the author.

I understand pirating e-books that the Publisher has not made available when you own the paper copy. But pirating because of geo restrictions seems to be a stretch to me.

Not that my opinion means anything. I know that there are people who think that my rationale for pirating anything is BS.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Two questions:
1) What law is this? Or "laws," rather, because this is apparently relevant to several different countries. In what country/countries is valid? (Not being snarky; I really would like to see the phrasing of the "digital purchases are presumed to occur at the location of the buyer's computer" law.)

For people in the European Union, the specific ruling is the various EU E-Commerce VAT directives:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...e/index_en.htm

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Georestrictions are one of the most stupid things I ever came across in the entertainment industry. Why would you NOT want to allow some people to buy your product, even though they clearly want to? It's absurd, if you think about it.

for any sundry of reasons i mentioned before and more. not enough bandwidth. not enough time. not owning the rights THERE, not wanting to pay taxes THERE. Timing for marketing purposes. Legal restrictions put in place by the government of the place you live etc etc etc

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Which doesn't really fill my heart with joy, considering I have a Wi-Fi only Kindle.

Anyway - (if this is true) - I do realise that it's a lot easier for Amazon to make every single customer in a certain country pay for the 3G of everyone, rather than differentiate between customers with 3G Kindles and everyone else.

I don't know about Canada, but I'm pretty sure that Amazon has never come out and stated, clearly and explicitly (in the other countries), that this is what the surcharge in all those countries where they add it is meant to cover. I've asked their customer service; the response I got was "unfortunately we do not offer any international surcharges" (yes, "bzuh?" was my reaction to that). And they do have "price includes free international delivery" under every single title.

I'd feel a lot less irritated by the surcharge if Amazon was open about it. :-/

(Actually, I'd feel a lot less irritated if Amazon stopped going on about "free international 3G", if it's actually that much of an issue for them, and charged the people with 3G Kindles extra for downloads over 3G. Not only does it appear that I have to pay for the convenience of other people, but I'm also charged extra VAT on that - 15% VAT on, say, $9.99 is, well, less than 15% VAT on $11.99, and it adds up when you buy a lot of books. But a clear, open, honest statement on why they charge it would go a long way.)

... On the other hand, Amazon stopped adding the $2 to free books last October or November. Which, well, I'm not complaining, but it makes one wonder why they don't want customers to pay for the 3G costs of downloading those.

OT, but you may find it interesting that with the 3g keyboard, I can get to the web and browse, yet with the 3g touch, Amazon no longer wants to provide free 3g to the entire web. I think they offered it in the earlier models because they had to (or hadn't figured out a way to restrict it) and they also probably didn't believe frugal hard-headed people like me would actually use the free 3g access to do emails and the occasional mapquest on a Kindle. They make it free because they don't want people hesitating to visit AMazon and Buy, Buy, Buy. However, when they offered authors a better contract, they then began to offload some of the cost of download to the author (and I'm not complaining. I'll take 70 percent minus a small download fee over 35 percent any day of the week.) So these costs play SOME part of the equation in all countries. To say that it's free delivery to the reader...well. I'm guessing that is likely why they won't define all the various surcharges.

It is all a bit mysterious and a moving target, I agree.