Amazon Censorship Expands

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by ebookrights1

No, I haven't.

Just wondering if anyone had considered that possibility.

I venture a guess that nobody in this thread has read it. Probably nobody at Amazon, either. And most likely nobody among those who put pressure on Amazon to take it down (by reporting it to be offensive or whatever).

[qisaiman]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

I'm rather curious how hot the water will have to get before the frog jumps.

yes that is what I am trying to say. It is an atitude that Amzon shows to experss the opinion on a "controversal" topic.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I venture a guess that nobody in this thread has read it. Probably nobody at Amazon, either. And most likely nobody among those who put pressure on Amazon to take it down (by reporting it to be offensive or whatever).

I read the samples at B&N. The ebooks are $12.95 each, which is way above my limit for any book, but had they been cheaper I would have done so. I don't feel one can speak accurately on something they aren't familiar with, so I got as familiar as I could within my budget.

I can't know for sure because of only reading the samples, but based on the summary and the sample content, neither of them glorify rape in the sense that some here are claiming. In fact, one's more about how anger can destroy you, the other seems to be about a jerk that gets his butt handed to him after years of using people. I'd say that there's actually a morality tale buried in there, and the gay erotica genre-izing was done to hit the niche market. I could be wrong, but unless someone buys them for me or they go on sale I'll never know.

[brennivin]

I couldn't be bothered to read through 18 pages of this debate honestly. I'm not too interested in participating on a one side or the other fashion. I did however want to add my perspective.

Why is my perspective relevant? I used to be the "prurience czar" on the image side of things at Amazon. What that means is that I was the one who policed what was and wasn't "acceptable" to display on their site. I wasn't involved in choosing what titles were or weren't sold mind you. Just in what imagery was acceptable. So while it's not the same as whoever opted to remove this title from their catalog, it's related. And it did lead to working with the marketing people that made those sell or don't sell decisions. So I have some inside poop.

Here's the thing ... they do have some definite lines drawn for what 100% can't be on the site. Then there's the grey area. Flagged stuff that has to get a thumbs up or down from someone. And yes, they work in a reactive fashion. The reason being that the percentage of things that would get flagged is fairly small. And the process to get things online would be seriously hobbled if everything had to go through the filter (part of my job was developing our processes for getting stuff online). So that means "bad" stuff often goes up and then gets pulled, rather than not going up at all. Ideal? No. But generally much more efficient for the 99.5% of product that isn't an issue.

For things in that grey area ... it's ... well ... grey. I was a lowly Photoshop jocky but debated VPs over images of naked man butts. And that's where the inconsistencies come in. If the person in charge of the catalog content get's word from someone higher up to pull something, they'll often pull it, it's what they're told to do. And often those higher up's aren't necessarily as altruistic as the catalog programmers, who are often in those jobs because they love books, etc. So if there's isn't the right person in place to defend a title, it'll get pulled.

There's a book called "The Toy". Innocuous title. Image of a woman in a cage, not a nun, but not naked. Ergo, fairly innocuous image. Neither alone an issue. However, the combination of the word "toy" with the imagery of a subjugated woman caused friction. Kids searching for playthings got S&M erotica.

Books like How to Rape a Straight Guy end up in similar conference calls. And if there's enough pressure, the person who actually handles the catalog would most likely choose to keep their career path clear rather than duke it out. You choose your battles.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by brennivin

I couldn't be bothered to read through 18 pages of this debate honestly. I'm not too interested in participating on a one side or the other fashion. I did however want to add my perspective... (snip) ...So I have some inside poop. (snip)

Thank you very much for the "inside poop"! And welcome to MobileRead!

Edited because I needlessly quoted the entire previous post.

[jehane]

I've been following thread with interest, and while on the one hand, I agree that Amazon can sell or refuse to sell any product they like, what disturbs me most is the attitude by some people that because of a certain word in the title and the genre they were classified in, that we should all be morally outraged. Nothing in the descriptions of the books (given in the first post) or the assessment of CWatkinsNash (just above) leads me to believe that either novel in question glorifies rape or provides instructions. Would it be offensive to some people? Sure, but there are plenty of things out there that are offensive to me and with much higher profile that aren't going to disappear any time soon.

I am concerned that some people think that having health insurance is worse than having secret phone taps and being able to hold people indefinitely without charge. I suggest reading 1984 (there's bound to be at least a paper copy around somewhere), and watching V for Vendetta and I, Robot.

Originally Posted by carld

PS: And I guess we should ban this book for promoting rape, and this one, and this one, and this one for having a title that's much too provocative.

Indeed. And don't forget any complete works of Shakespeare, which include The Rape of Lucrece.

Must be time for a book burning.

[crich70]

For me it's not a matter of forcing them to sell something they don't want to, but a matter of their ambiguity in what guidelines I've found and/or read about here in the thread. Go to any publishers website and you will find clear concise guidelines as to what they buy (fiction or non-fiction), length of manuscript and genre (in the case of fiction), but it sounds like they don't do anything like that at Amazon and then just go about yanking books off the shelves without making it clear as to why they were pulled. To me that just doesn't sound like good business.

Originally Posted by nguirado

It seems that people want to use the legal system and/or government to force a store to sell something they don't want to. Isn't that restricting freedom?

[ebookrights1]

I think the whole thing is paranoid nonsense. A company drops some fringe ebook like "A Beginner's Guide to Elder Abuse" or "Fondling FruitBats For Fun" and everyone goes nuts, screaming about Freedom of Speech like someone was going to take away their right to babble incoherently overnight.

It's a non issue.

Real literature is safe, just so long as people can keep Reality in perspective.

And that Freedom of Speech has limits.
Like good taste.
And common sense.

[RoboRay]

If somebody is upset that some company won't sell somebody else's book in that company's store and think that the author's rights or potential buyer's rights are being violated, I invite them to consult an attorney.

They won't get any satisfaction but maybe they'll become a little less ignorant in the process.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by RoboRay

If somebody is upset that some company won't sell somebody else's book in that company's store and think that the author's rights or potential buyer's rights are being violated, I invite them to consult an attorney.

They won't get any satisfaction but maybe they'll become a little less ignorant in the process.

That is not what people are upset about. People are upset that others can get Amazon to ban a book by complaining or otherwise putting pressure on them. What is frightening is that small interest groups can put such pressure on a giant company like Amazon to self censor their offerings.

Amazon might be accused of caving in too easily, however, they have to think of business first.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by brennivin

...choose to keep their career path clear rather than duke it out. You choose your battles.

You know I'm really beginning to hate that phrase "Choose your battles", which seems to now mean, go along with whatever shit comes down the tube.....

maybe I'm just grumpy cause today is backtowork day after two weeks off.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by jehane

.....

Must be time for a book burning.

Love that one!

[AGB]

Originally Posted by kennyc

You know I'm really beginning to hate that phrase "Choose your battles", which seems to now mean, go along with whatever shit comes down the tube.....

I agree. It is being used now (as in the example) to make people toe the line of a company, no matter what the company does and says.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by brennivin

Flagged stuff that has to get a thumbs up or down from someone.

How many complaints does it take to make that list?

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by ebookrights1

Real literature is safe, just so long as people can keep Reality in perspective.

... and so long as it doesn't touch on any "objectionable" issues.