The Vent and Rant Thread

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by wodin

Those who believe the old saw "The customer is always right." have never been the merchant.

I used to get that a lot as a manager at my last job. It's actually a good rule of thumb, if you use it correctly, because if someone is costing me time and money, I'm the customer, not them.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by wodin

Those who believe the old saw "The customer is always right." have never been the merchant.

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

^That

No kidding. I did something I normally don't do--I emailed him/her back, at length (which was stupid. S/he's NOT GOING TO READ IT, given that's the whole frakking problem in the first damn place), and said: I sent you this; you emailed me x times about it, then I did that, and you didn't know how to do THAT, and did it all with a chronology. I said, sorry, but a) you are making this MUCH harder on both of us than it needs to be, and b) I can't do this.

I don't know how/why it just did me in, but I do know, as each day went on, I started to bloody DREAD the day when we'd send her eBooks to her. We get a LOT of pushback/demand/complaints about that, as I've mentioned before. They don't like that they don't open in Word, can't just "launch" (open) it by double-clicking; they have to install readers to read them, and the usual. The thought of sending him/her the books, and just WAITING...I knew that this was going to be like that guy (I've ranted about) with the 80+ emails, insisting we sent him a "corrupt" file, because--wait for it--he never figured out how to ACTUALLY DL the damn file from Gmail.

It was like...physical dread. Like what people describe as anxiety attacks, sorta, thinking about it. Man...a few hundred bucks just IS. NOT. WORTH. that kind of BS. I keep wondering if I just went off on him/her because I'd had a crap day (and, oh, BOY, did I--our heatpump/AC unit died, and yes, Virginia, there IS a new Heatpump/AC man...who'll come to your house for a cool 5+ digits...)...but I don't think it was that. In hindsight...I probably should have cut this off at the pass, earlier. I kept thinking that s/he would get with the program, but...nope. (At this rate, I'm going to start seriously scouting houses in Panama instead of idly on Saturday afternoons.)

Hitch

[cromag]

I can sympathize with you about customers, Hitch. When I was in high school I worked behind the counter at a Baskin Robbins ice cream shop.

One day.

[Katsunami]

Bwaah. Do you know what I always think about when developing stuff for use on the internet?

Benny Hill & Jackety Sax.

The latest and greatest frontend/backend frameworks from 2014, then trending up and up, are now trending down and down. There are bazillions of frontend, backend, and glue-stuff-together frameworks, all fading in and out of existence. They're hailed as the next big great thing in 2014, and then they're in the graveyard in 2016. If they do still exist, newer versions are often grossly incompatible with older ones.

How is someone to develop a solution on top of that, and then guarantee support and continued development, so a company can depend on said solution for a decade or more?

It's no wonder everything is messed up in IT, and especially on the web. Stuff you learn today is old tomorrow. Everything changes so fast that nothing gets perfected to a point where it can be used for a long time.

How would you like it, if the house you commissioned for building in 2014 starts sagging in 2016, and then got told: "Sorry, those construction techniques are old. They're not used anymore, we can't get new bricks and beams of those kinds. The only thing you can do is use workarounds and hope they'll keep everything standing, or build a new house from scratch."

Right. You wouldn't like it.

I don't mind change. Really, I don't. I can live with it, and I can study new things. I *CAN'T* study new things continuously, however. I also need to *MAKE* shit to be useful, you know.

Even worse, everybody does the same thing differently.

I've often got rejected for jobs because I had been programming in framework X, while the other employer was looking for someone with 3 years of experience in framework Y. No matter that the framework in question didn't even exist three years earlier...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by cromag

I can sympathize with you about customers, Hitch. When I was in high school I worked behind the counter at a Baskin Robbins ice cream shop.

One day.

LOL, Cro:

I had a similar experience. I loathe customer service, so...what do I do, when the RE Development and Hotel Construction biz goes to hell in a handbasket, in 2007-8? Well, gosh, I decide to do THIS instead. (uhhhhh..... Stupid, stupid woman...)

I mean, I thought--jeeze, this ain't hard. Take file-->HTML-->eBook. Simple, right? WHODATHUNK it was going to be LIKE THIS????

Thanks, Cro. May I have a sundae, please?

Hitch

[poohbear_nc]

Originally Posted by Hitch

LOL, Cro:

I had a similar experience. I loathe customer service, so...what do I do, when the RE Development and Hotel Construction biz goes to hell in a handbasket, in 2007-8? Well, gosh, I decide to do THIS instead. (uhhhhh..... Stupid, stupid woman...)

I mean, I thought--jeeze, this ain't hard. Take file-->HTML-->eBook. Simple, right? WHODATHUNK it was going to be LIKE THIS????

Thanks, Cro. May I have a sundae, please?

Hitch

Do you want sprinkles with that?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by poohbear_nc

Do you want sprinkles with that?

I want soft gooey marshmallow sauce, hot fudge, and peanuts. LOL, OMG, I used to love that when I was a girl! (Let's not discuss how long ago THAT was...)

P.S.: the client termination turned into fugly, of course. Wrapping up with a demand that I send "proof of deletion" of his/her manuscript. {SIGH}. I started to explain that that was useless, and thought..."why? S/he won't read it any damned way," and told him/her to email the project (which had been archived, which should send her a notice saying that the address no longer exists, which should be enough "proof") to get proof that it had been deleted.



Trying to explain why "deletion" means absolutely NOTHING in the electronic world...nah. That's for suckers.

Hitch

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Trying to explain why "deletion" means absolutely NOTHING in the electronic world...nah. That's for suckers.

LOL yeah Same with protection against printing more than once, for example with many sheet music services.

Yes, you can print only once, after you bought the piece, but pray tell, what holds me back from copying that piece 50.000 times, or scan it back into the computer and then printing that new PDF a bazillion times or mailing it around to all of my friends?

So many things mean nothing in the digital realm.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

LOL yeah Same with protection against printing more than once, for example with many sheet music services.

Yes, you can print only once, after you bought the piece, but pray tell, what holds me back from copying that piece 50.000 times, or scan it back into the computer and then printing that new PDF a bazillion times or mailing it around to all of my friends?

So many things mean nothing in the digital realm.

Right. We put all files, for quoting, into a Dropbox, which runs under a company account. Everybody here has access to the Dropbox, although, obviously, not all folders therein. The relevant bookmaker may look at the file(s), which means it synchs to his/her Dropbox, on his/her system/terminal/computer. (We have thousands of folders. No exaggeration.). So, when a book moves into production, either the client a) sends the files directly to the project, using a dedicated unique "mailto" address, for that project, which is backed up on Amazon S-3's, or, b) sends us the final production files through our corporate Hightail account, which--you guessed it--keeps the copy for X period of time. THEN the prod. files go into our PM system, which is (again) on S3s.

Meanwhile, the quoting files are still in the Dropbox. Even deleted, of course, they would be recoverable therefrom. The final production files, recoverable from either Hightail or Teamworks (the PM system we use). I mean..I'd practically have to scour the entire system, to delete the accursed thing. AND the bookmakers' computers, and the Hightail, and....

{SIGH}. These things can be difficult to explain to someone who doesn't even read two paragraphs in an email (yes, yes, you snide people, even very short un-Hitch-like paragraphs, not compound, using no commas, semi-colons, etc.), and clearly has some difficulty in "technical stuff."

Spoiler:

You may recall: this was the same person who told me that s/he was too busy to read our Terms and Conditions, and could I just send him/her the relevant parts in a summary? I don't know if I said this here already, but...really? What, you think I just sent you all this irrelevant s**t for fun? To see if I could torture you into reading it? URGHGHGHGHGH! At first, I almost thought it was funny--right? I mean...the whole idea that I sent this big long T&C, but I could summarize the "relevant"parts? That feeling, of course, was before I knew that this was a symptom of a much larger problem. FWIW, our "T&C" contains very specific information, of things like "what we are obligated to do," "what you(client) are obligated to do," "what happens if you've sent us the wrong file to produce, and you don't figure it out until we send it to you for review," "What constitutes a single edit," or "what happens if you suddenly decide that you have a deadline you forgot to tell us about," etc.

This no doubt sounds anal-retentive, right, but trust me--I answer these same questions 10, 20 times a week, or more. This business is all about the details, including things like "what constitutes a single edit?" They (by and large) wouldn't read this crap, or use my FAQ, when I was trying to not overwhelm them, and drip-feed it to them, but as they didn't, I put it in the T&C, and now make them SIGN a document saying that they've read it. ENOUGH with me being constantly barraged with the same damn questions over and over, or people saying "well, you didn't TELL me that an entire page of replacement text isn't a single edit," or so on.

This horrible document is a whopping 12 pages long, 4,755 words. I put in an almost by-paragraph/topic TOC, with informational titles, fully linked. Two of the pages are the title page and the "How To Use This Document" page, which consists of an informal, friendly letter, explaining WHY you need to read it. Two more pages are the TOC. Thus, the HORRIFIC T&C is, in actuality, 7 pages of Calibri 11pt font, with 1.5 line spacing. Hanging indented paras, wth a line of whitespace separating them. 4,280 words of content.


Yeah, I'm an ogre.

Hitch

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Bwaah. Do you know what I always think about when developing stuff for use on the internet?

Benny Hill & Jackety Sax.

The latest and greatest frontend/backend frameworks from 2014, then trending up and up, are now trending down and down. There are bazillions of frontend, backend, and glue-stuff-together frameworks, all fading in and out of existence. They're hailed as the next big great thing in 2014, and then they're in the graveyard in 2016. If they do still exist, newer versions are often grossly incompatible with older ones.

How is someone to develop a solution on top of that, and then guarantee support and continued development, so a company can depend on said solution for a decade or more?

It's no wonder everything is messed up in IT, and especially on the web. Stuff you learn today is old tomorrow. Everything changes so fast that nothing gets perfected to a point where it can be used for a long time.

How would you like it, if the house you commissioned for building in 2014 starts sagging in 2016, and then got told: "Sorry, those construction techniques are old. They're not used anymore, we can't get new bricks and beams of those kinds. The only thing you can do is use workarounds and hope they'll keep everything standing, or build a new house from scratch."

Right. You wouldn't like it.

I don't mind change. Really, I don't. I can live with it, and I can study new things. I *CAN'T* study new things continuously, however. I also need to *MAKE* shit to be useful, you know.

Even worse, everybody does the same thing differently.

I've often got rejected for jobs because I had been programming in framework X, while the other employer was looking for someone with 3 years of experience in framework Y. No matter that the framework in question didn't even exist three years earlier...

I've lived that forever. I remember when C++ first came out and all the job postings were looking for people with 5+ years experience in it. Yep. There's not a lot of people available who actually created the language.

Tech job requirements are ludicrous a lot of the time.

When I interview people for my company I look for enthusiasm and what they think is cool about what they have previously done. I can ask specific questions about technology, but I'm not overly certain if you're just good with google and have a good memory or not.

[Cinisajoy]

You sound like such an ogre. 4,300 words. OMG. That is like a half hour. You are charging like $500 and you expect the client to actually read and see what they are paying for. Oh wow. Meanie.

For what it is worth,
I would be reading that T&C very carefully just to make sure both of us are on the same page. For all I know you might have an "if you annoy me too much I get to keep the money without giving you a product" clause.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Actually, my favorite analogy to construction for the tech industry is that usually construction companies don't get told partway through construction that they are actually constructing a 50 story building with an Olympic size pool on the top when they have just finished the second floor of a two-story house.

Requirements analysis and requirements sign-off are wonderful things. Too bad I think I've worked on two projects that actually got sign-off prior to the last week of development.

Sigh.

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by Hitch

... could I just send him/her the relevant parts in a summary?
Hitch

Your summary:
"(1) If you have any questions, look here first. I already told you the answer.
(2) If you have to ask 'will it cost more', read this. Or else it probably will cost more.
(3) We only make the ebook. YOU publish it yourself."


Or some variation on #3.

bgDeb

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

You sound like such an ogre. 4,300 words. OMG. That is like a half hour. You are charging like $500 and you expect the client to actually read and see what they are paying for. Oh wow. Meanie.

For what it is worth,
I would be reading that T&C very carefully just to make sure both of us are on the same page. For all I know you might have an "if you annoy me too much I get to keep the money without giving you a product" clause.

$500? OMG, I wish. This entire debacle? Was over a $190USD contract. Yes, kids, you read that right. One Hundred Ninety US Dollars.

Cins: BUSTED! You found my "screw-you" clause! (We do have one like that, for abandonment, but my counsel told me I had to remove the best part--the 'I get to punch you in the nose' part. But Mr. Hitch did get me a heavy bag...)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Actually, my favorite analogy to construction for the tech industry is that usually construction companies don't get told partway through construction that they are actually constructing a 50 story building with an Olympic size pool on the top when they have just finished the second floor of a two-story house.

True, but given an adequately manic ower, you can be change ordered to death! ;-)

Requirements analysis and requirements sign-off are wonderful things. Too bad I think I've worked on two projects that actually got sign-off prior to the last week of development.

Sigh.

Agreed, 100%. Unfortunately, that seems to be anathema to clients who think that they're paying you...hell. I don't know WHAT they think.

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

Your summary:
"(1) If you have any questions, look here first. I already told you the answer.
(2) If you have to ask 'will it cost more', read this. Or else it probably will cost more.
(3) We only make the ebook. YOU publish it yourself."


Or some variation on #3.

bgDeb

Badgood! OMG, that's the thing--that's exactly what I said. (Great minds...) And the response was, "you're mean, and I don't want to work with you anymore, either."



I don't marvin very often. It must be the people climbing all over my place, installing a new bloody heat pump/ac and handler. My nerves are shot with folks drilling over my damn head. And I'm paying for the privilege of this chaos, mind you.

Hitch