Piracy vs Bookstores

[kaas]

Actually the recluse series is a good example. I am going to buy that series on recommendation in pbook format since I could not find it as ebook series. Afterwards I will download them from the darknet, put the pbooks in my shelves and enjoy my ereader...
Morally suspect? I don't believe so. Legal? Certainly (I am allowed to have a digital copy of an original work)! While my behaviour as a student, when I was poor, was maybe not legal, I still consider it not as that hineous. What did it cost the authorg? Nothing. What did it gain them? Book sales once I could afford them. I am now 27 years old and surely will continue to "pay back" the authors for a few years...
About me beeing a leech, well, my taxes alone are double the usual income in my country (Germany) and now I not only can afford books/ ebooks, but do so. Please read more carefull before you write opinions like that.
cheers,
kaas

[Olympus]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Actually, I have been speaking in very straightforward terms, trying to emphasize the fact that a product that an author makes money on should be paid for, whatever its format. The fact that e-books can easily be copied and disseminated by others, thereby creating instances of the product independent of the author's efforts, does not change this one fact (yes, I personally consider this a fact). And finally, that copyright law should be written/rewritten to indicate and protect this fact.

Having read all your arguments I discover that you send mixed messages:
Here you state that an author creates a product that he should be rewarded for: I totally agree.

But why should an author be rewarded multiple times just because I prefer another transport medium: e-book, paperback, large print, hard-cover .... When I switch from paperback to hard-cover the author has not added a single letter to his story, however the publisher has added some additional value and has additional costs. The publisher has to pay for paper the printer and the DTP-er to create another physical format. Therefore for each physical product has to be paid for, because someone has had costs to produce and distribute that physical product.
However the cost of a physical book including the printing, distribution and royalties are a mere fraction of the sales price. The margin (+800%) is used for keeping a title in stock, distribution fees (bookstore has a margin of 40%) and compensate for the many and many failing titles.

As Apple transformed the illigal mp3 market with a immense accessable library with standard price well below the price of a physical CD with the iTunes store, I dare the book publishers to do the same. Give me access to an e-book for $3 immediately when a physical book is available and I won't even bother to look for poorly formatted and/or poorly OCR-ed darknet version.

As people are trained that you can borrow as many books as you like for the price of 1 hard-copy book at a library, it is very difficult for people to accept that using "dark-net" books are any different then borrowing from a friend: the author nor the publisher gets any payment.
With your ridgit morals I would like to raise the question: is it right or wrong to lend/borrow a p-book, because the author/publisher does not receive any payments? Is it right or wrong to listen to music while at friends place or have a friend bring music to yours?

As a person I have the right to do whatever and wherever I like with something I paid for: with physical products this is accepted. What gives an author/publisher the impression that an movie/mp3/e-book is to be treated differently and control where and how I use there "service/product"?
Give me the option to e-lend a book to a friend (like ClevNet) and the option to use MY personal e-bookon any device I prefer and I would be more than happy to pay for an e-book the same price as for the physical version. As this is restricted give me a HUGE discount and just charge for the and the royalties an author would normally get + some reasonable margin (10%??)

[cmbs]

Wow. I was re-reading this thread and was so happy to see some honest and rational people speaking up! I swear sometimes I think I'm the only one left alive.

Then one guy gets told to stop because thieves are insulted when you call them thieves and explain that everything in the world is not theirs for the taking.

By a moderator no less. Impressive.

What's going on is these people are making up reasons why it's not their fault they have to steal, and when you put the truth in front of them it messes with their denial and they find it uncomfortable.

[kaas]

Originally Posted by cmbs

Wow. I was re-reading this thread and was so happy to see some honest and rational people speaking up! I swear sometimes I think I'm the only one left alive.

Then one guy gets told to stop because thieves are insulted when you call them thieves and explain that everything in the world is not theirs for the taking.

By a moderator no less. Impressive.

What's going on is these people are making up reasons why it's not their fault they have to steal, and when you put the truth in front of them it messes with their denial and they find it uncomfortable.

Please do read before writing...

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by cmbs

Wow. I was re-reading this thread and was so happy to see some honest and rational people speaking up! I swear sometimes I think I'm the only one left alive.

Then one guy gets told to stop because thieves are insulted when you call them thieves and explain that everything in the world is not theirs for the taking.

By a moderator no less. Impressive.

What's going on is these people are making up reasons why it's not their fault they have to steal, and when you put the truth in front of them it messes with their denial and they find it uncomfortable.

I have no problem with calling a thief a thief. I can live with discord. My problem with his post was that it looked to me that he was more interested in venting his spleen than in arguing why piracy was wrong.

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I have no problem with calling a thief a thief. I can live with discord. My problem with his post was that it looked to me that he was more interested in venting his spleen than in arguing why piracy was wrong.

And I thought he was doing a good job of explaining why piracy is wrong. The whole attitude of "I'm going to steal his book, AND it's his fault" is ludicrous and very disrespectful to all the people who work hard to create a book. A lot of people seem to be quite unaware that things don't appear by magic - someone has put a lot of time and energy into creating it. It is their creation to do with as they choose.

Of course it's frustrating if parts of a series are published in electronic format and the rest aren't. Of course it doesn't make a bit of sense. In no way does that "force" you to steal the book, in no way does it excuse stealing the book. Buying the paperback also doesn't excuse stealing the electronic version. If you want the ebook, buy it. If it's not legally available, you don't read it. It's not that complicated.

Posts like this where 50 people chime in to say "yeah I steal it because the publisher won't publish it legally" "I steal it because I have the paperback and that makes it ok" or, stated like a fact (by a moderator, no less), "piracy is the publisher's fault" make it appear acceptable to steal the books. Then one guy is trying to say why it's wrong and you censure HIM.

I am very happy to see so many people saying stealing is wrong, I hope they keep it up.

[Olympus]

However I dare all the people here claiming that piracy is not their cup of tea beceause it's stealing.
Have you asked for each picture you ever made a written concent of the people in the background as you ARE breaking a law without it.
You never ask a friend to help you with Do-It-yourself chores as you are not hirering a professional.
Have you never borrowed some tools from a friendly neighbour instead of hirering or buying it yourself?

Don't pretend that with e-books the options are suddenly only black and white.

The problem with pirated books is that you never know if the story has not been altered/edited by someone else. How many Harry Potter books have been downloaded just to find out that it was not written by JK Rowling but by someone unknown (I have all HP's in English and translated versions)
Give me an e-library with all the books published from the past 30 years for a reasanoble price ($4 max) and I would hire/ buy without any trouble to find an obscure (OCR-ed) version.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Olympus

Have you asked for each picture you ever made a written concent of the people in the background as you ARE breaking a law without it.

Nope, not in the US. If I can see it I can shoot it.

Originally Posted by Olympus

You never ask a friend to help you with Do-It-yourself chores as you are not hirering a professional.
Have you never borrowed some tools from a friendly neighbour instead of hirering or buying it yourself?

How do these relate to piracy? A better question would be to ask if I ever stole my neighbor's wallet, or removed tools from my neighbor's shed without his permission. I have done neither.

Originally Posted by Olympus

The problem with pirated books is that you never know if the story has not been altered/edited by someone else. How many Harry Potter books have been downloaded just to find out that it was not written by JK Rowling but by someone unknown (I have all HP's in English and translated versions)
Give me an e-library with all the books published from the past 30 years for a reasanoble price ($4 max) and I would hire/ buy without any trouble to find an obscure (OCR-ed) version.

This last part can be summed up as whining, and doesn't need a response.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Nope, not in the US. If I can see it I can shoot it.

Nate, that is true as long as it is not used for a commercial purpose. In the U.S., to use it for a commercial purpose, permissions are required -- especially of people but there are cases holding it is also required of some structures.

[kaas]

Originally Posted by cmbs

Buying the paperback also doesn't excuse stealing the electronic version. If you want the ebook, buy it. If it's not legally available, you don't read it. It's not that complicated.

I think you did not understand. Where I live, it is quite legal do download a digital version of a pbook you posess. that makes it legally available. Even If it wouldn't be legal, I would not find it ethically wrong as long as I would have the bpook...

[Olympus]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Nope, not in the US. If I can see it I can shoot it.

Oops I forgot: in the US "everybody" has a gun and ready to shoot

[Lobolover]

in love,war and literature,everything goes.

[Patricia]

I think that there are several issues here.
1. One is piracy (which I personally believe to be a morally bad thing).
2. Then there is freedom of expression - generally held to be a good thing.
3. Then there is a difficulty of drawing a line when (1) and (2) conflict. At the moment we are drawing the line by deleting any links to illegal sites and by encouraging people to disagree in a polite manner.
Encouraging courtesy has several merits. People are more likely to re-evaluate their views if you question them in a civilised manner - even when you think that their actions aren't especially civilised. And flaming merely discourages genuine debate. Moreover, forum members are adults and a strict censorship on even mentioning illegal behaviour would be treating them like children: easily seduced by freebies.
The issue is also rather blurred because some of you live in states where copying a book that you own in treeware format is allowed. And some of us don't. This makes discussion even more complicated. And then we can debate whether the law takes precedence over morality ...
It is hardly surprising that more heat than light is generated.
I have published. I have had my work taken without permission. I was annoyed. I don't intend to do that to anyone else.

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by Olympus

However I dare all the people here claiming that piracy is not their cup of tea beceause it's stealing.
Have you asked for each picture you ever made a written concent of the people in the background as you ARE breaking a law without it.
You never ask a friend to help you with Do-It-yourself chores as you are not hirering a professional.
Have you never borrowed some tools from a friendly neighbour instead of hirering or buying it yourself?

Don't pretend that with e-books the options are suddenly only black and white.

The problem with pirated books is that you never know if the story has not been altered/edited by someone else. How many Harry Potter books have been downloaded just to find out that it was not written by JK Rowling but by someone unknown (I have all HP's in English and translated versions)
Give me an e-library with all the books published from the past 30 years for a reasanoble price ($4 max) and I would hire/ buy without any trouble to find an obscure (OCR-ed) version.

This post is an example of more dreaming up excuses why stealing books is acceptable behavior. Of course they're irrelevent. It's all irrelevent. There isn't any valid reason to steal the books.

It's not suddenly black and white. It's always been black and white. It's not just ebooks, it's stealing; particularly stealing an entertainment item which you can live without with no problem. This is not life or death, extreme circumstances. There is on gray area here. Quit lying to yourself and you'll find that fog clearing.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by cmbs

This post is an example of more dreaming up excuses why stealing books is acceptable behavior. Of course they're irrelevent. It's all irrelevent. There isn't any valid reason to steal the books.

It's not suddenly black and white. It's always been black and white. It's not just ebooks, it's stealing; particularly stealing an entertainment item which you can live without with no problem. This is not life or death, extreme circumstances. There is on gray area here. Quit lying to yourself and you'll find that fog clearing.

Except that it is not stealing. It is copyright infringement.