Could the Kindle spark book piracy?

[rixte]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

It is certainly put in place by authors/publishers... but why? Because of three facts: The existence of P2P sites, chocked full of illegally-obtained files; their incredible popularity; and the documented experiences of the digital music market, the most similar platform there is to compare to. All of that makes for a very legitimate fear. If virtually or literally no one was using P2P sites (or the darknet, or the old newsgroups, etc) to pirate material, they wouldn't see a need for DRM, and it wouldn't be there.

So it is the activity of pirates that directly causes DRM, and their continued resistance against it that causes its escalation.

And yet the movement in music is shifting *toward* nonDRM files being made available for direct sale.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

But on DRM, it is often (almost always) broken by pirates. Look at the LIT format fiasco! The point is DRM doesn't seem to even slow down pirates so ALL it affects are legitimate users. Aside from the fear of DRM catastrophe (loss of entire library), that is the point many customers are trying to make. Why are they inconveniencing us if it does nothing to stop piracy?

So it's not so much the notion of protecting the content that's a dismal failure as it is the execution.

Probably we need a totally new approach, since this road seems to be so firmly a dead end.

[rixte]

This is more about my feelings on DRM than piracy, but:


I think it comes down to the fact that people are human and the bulk of people are honest and want to pay for what they consume. They're also frustrated by conflicting file formats, proprietary devices and the feeling that they're not actually *buying* what they buy.

Able to purchase something legally for a fair price that they can use on the device they want, people will do it.

Fair price is one large key - and yes, I think that the price of ebooks should be comparable but less than hardcopy books. The work of the writer/editor/publisher should be duly rewarded but there would be a small deduction for the physical materials, shipping and storage costs. I'm quite happy with many of the pricing schemes currently available now, particularly after the release of the Kindle and how it's affected the market.

I am *not* happy when publishers publish a book in hardback, an ebook price is set and that price is never adjusted to reflect the later publication of a paperback. That's a pet peeve.

The second, and this is huge, is that consumers should be ABLE to buy the book. So many catalogues of publishers aren't available electronically yet, and it's doubly frustrating when you can get one or two books in a series, but not all in the same format.

Lastly - I've been buying ebooks for so many years now. I have a hundreds of book in eReader format that I won't be able to use on my Cybook. I had books for the old Gemstar that are pretty much lost for good at this point. I've bought a handful of books in .lit format. It's really is a major frustration for me that I am now going to have to make the choice of repurchasing any of them I want to reread them, or read them on a less convenient device.

And of course I have books that are not tied to a DRM scheme. Guess which ones make me happy?

DRM does not punish the people who pirate. It doesn't even affect them. It punishes those that do NOT pirate. That's what I hope publishers start to recognize. I have the smallest, slightest hope that the music industry is moving that direction, with both amazon mp3s and itunes music now being made available in nonDRMed files.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rixte

And yet the movement in music is shifting *toward* nonDRM files being made available for direct sale.

Right. I think it's significant that iTunes started out with DRM'd content. Once people got used to the service, and voted with their wallets, Apple knew they had their audience. Once the audience was established and experienced in using the service, Apple could offer non-DRM'd music at a slightly higher price.

This is why I feel standardization is key to e-books' being able to travel the same route. As long as we have competing formats and delivery systems, the consumer will not have a dominant delivery system to get used to, adding to confusion and complexity, and promoting DRM to artificially force product lock. Once standardization is set and product lock is no longer an issue, the process of getting everyone settled into a system can be accomplished. Once a large audience is used to the system, DRM can be dropped, because the vast majority will be satisfied to pay for content and will offset any losses due to piracy or sharing.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rixte

Able to purchase something legally for a fair price that they can use on the device they want, people will do it.

I think that cuts to the heart of the matter: Treat customers fairly, and they won't rip you off. I always followed that maxim, which is why I researched the e-book market before I released my books, and my site reflects that with low prices, no DRM, and free extras throughout the site.

It can constitute a fair amount of work. But it's worth it, if it means customers feel they are being served by you. So far, I have not felt a reason to regret my choices, or my belief that most customers are honest ones.

And that's why I made my books available to the Kindle... the idea that I am serving my customers by offering more choices. Hopefully they will appreciate this effort and support it by buying.

I voted that I didn't expect Kindle to change the piracy situation, and I still don't. I do expect that the piracy situation will eventually work itself out, independent of the Kindle, as the overall market standardizes.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

But on DRM, it is often (almost always) broken by pirates. Look at the LIT format fiasco! The point is DRM doesn't seem to even slow down pirates so ALL it affects are legitimate users. Aside from the fear of DRM catastrophe (loss of entire library), that is the point many customers are trying to make. Why are they inconveniencing us if it does nothing to stop piracy?

Unfortunately, they have no better tools with which to try to protect their investment, so they use what they have. I believe the Kindle system is specifically designed to approach DRM from a different direction, locking it inside independent hardware instead of computer-based software (likely to discourage anyone from cracking the case and unlocking it) and making it as painless as possible.

It may not work any better than anything else... but perhaps Amazon is counting on establishing that e-book market before cracked DRM becomes a problem, and eventually letting it slide (like iTunes).

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

But on DRM, it is often (almost always) broken by pirates. Look at the LIT format fiasco! The point is DRM doesn't seem to even slow down pirates so ALL it affects are legitimate users. Aside from the fear of DRM catastrophe (loss of entire library), that is the point many customers are trying to make. Why are they inconveniencing us if it does nothing to stop piracy?

The same reasoning can be applied to cars. Might as well leave yours unlocked because the Pirates already know how to break it. Reminds me of a ad campaign that said Don't leave your car unlocked or you could make a 'good' boy go 'bad'. It could be argued that the boy is already bad and just waiting for an opportunity but then I didn't write the add.

The application to eBooks says that without DRM all the 'good' boys would go 'bad' and stealing would be rampant.

Dale

[Penforhire]

Not really a good analogy. The odd of my car being jacked by pros is dimishingly small. The odds of an encrypted book being jacked for darknet distribution approaches 100%. Plus I recently chose my car partly because they made its theft "DRM" more painless, keyless entry & start. My key never leaves my pocket.

Bain books already proved that if you leave an e-book unencrypted the sales do NOT drop to zero but rather increase. While I have some issues with the future of that, well, those are the facts. And they refute the assertion that DRM is necessary while the hassle factor to us is a given.

[Amalthia]

I think what still kills me is I really want to buy ebooks from amazon and I can't because of their stupid DRM. So far Baen is the only online bookstore that makes me completely happy, mostly because when I buy books from them I can get an RTF and format the book for my reader so I can read it comfortably.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Amothea

I think what still kills me is I really want to buy ebooks from amazon and I can't because of their stupid DRM. So far Baen is the only online bookstore that makes me completely happy, mostly because when I buy books from them I can get an RTF and format the book for my reader so I can read it comfortably.

Ahem... you can do that with my books, too.

[rflashman]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

It is certainly put in place by authors/publishers... but why? Because of three facts: The existence of P2P sites, chocked full of illegally-obtained files; their incredible popularity; and the documented experiences of the digital music market, the most similar platform there is to compare to. All of that makes for a very legitimate fear. If virtually or literally no one was using P2P sites (or the darknet, or the old newsgroups, etc) to pirate material, they wouldn't see a need for DRM, and it wouldn't be there.

So it is the activity of pirates that directly causes DRM, and their continued resistance against it that causes its escalation.

There has yet to be a single survey that establishes scientifically that P2P sites have a truly negative effect on sales of most media. The entire time the industry has been whining that P2P is killing them, sales figures have been higher every single year than the last. No year has sold 'less' than the previous year.

If anything, studies have found that most pirate downloads are not 'lost' sales but non-existent sales. When NAPSTER shut down music sales did NOT go up. When Macrovision started shipping on videotapes, movie video sales did NOT go up. Book sales are not higher in rural areas (where borrowing books is harder cause they are less people to borrow from and smaller libraries) than in urban areas (where they are more libraries and people to borrow from).

Technically peer piracy has been around forever (loaning books, then videos, then making music tape copies, etc.). Convenience has been proven the one key way that people spend money on copyright material. Most pirate downloads are truly inconsequential to the bottom line. Most people choose convenience (Blockbuster vs. Torrent Download).

What the media industry is doing by using DRM and trying to maintain abnormally high prices is shoot themselves in the foot. Ever wonder how many MORE music CDs would sell if all new albums were 9.99. Would they sell over 50% more, surpassing the profits they make at $14.99? What if all Itune albums were $4.99, or all song downloads $.29, or all ebooks $1?

The industry seems to forget there are 300 million americans, and even more people world-wide, and sets artificially high prices so they can be happy/thrilled when an album sells 1 million. Yet, if they were run like a true consumer company, they'd realize that deeper penetration at lower prices probably gets them more long term profits through increased brand awareness and brand loyalty. A music band that sells 20 million albums at 4.99 is more likely to get their 2nd album sold than one that sold half a million at $14.99.

Whining about pirated copies as if they represented true LOST sales is just wishful greedy thinking. DRM only hurts the legitimate buyers, since true pirates are unaffected by it. I never did finish Reagan's diary on my Sony Reader, and I am not paying $9.99 to buy it again and finish it on my Kindle. But if I had simply pirated it (I'm sure it's out somewhere as an unlocked eBook version) I would not have had this problem.

This is why I stopped buying ALL music CDs five years ago and only listen to Satellite Radio. My personal protest to stupidity.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rflashman

There has yet to be a single survey that establishes scientifically that P2P sites have a truly negative effect on sales of most media. The entire time the industry has been whining that P2P is killing them, sales figures have been higher every single year than the last. No year has sold 'less' than the previous year.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that CD sales were in decline, and have been so for the last few years?

What the media industry is doing by using DRM and trying to maintain abnormally high prices is shoot themselves in the foot. Ever wonder how many MORE music CDs would sell if all new albums were 9.99. Would they sell over 50% more, surpassing the profits they make at $14.99?

I rather doubt it. Most CDs are bought by "fans" of a group, and there are only a finite number of them. I wouldn't buy a "Spice Girls" CD if it cost $1, but my sister would buy one if it cost $50. I don't think fans are particularly bothered about CD prices.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rflashman

There has yet to be a single survey that establishes scientifically that P2P sites have a truly negative effect on sales of most media.

That may be... I was mainly referring to the perception of piracy that the P2P sites and their widespread use suggest.

Regardless of the statistics pro or con, the music industry is convinced that they are being pirated, and their actions reflect that belief. Without concrete numbers, all the e-book industry can do is look at the activity and attitudes in the music industry and assume the same will apply to them. Then they take the same actions the music industry has taken.

It's therefore not scientific, not knowledgeable, but emotional in basis. You'd think the literature industry would be able to think a bit clearer than that... on the other hand, they have been pretty static for so long (in terms of business model, marketing, etc) that they seem to be institutionally unable to develop a new business model or try radically new things.

Originally Posted by rflashman

This is why I stopped buying ALL music CDs five years ago and only listen to Satellite Radio. My personal protest to stupidity.

I like satellite radio, too, as well as internet radio. But they don't play everything, and I still want to own music that I can't get from them.

[rflashman]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that CD sales were in decline, and have been so for the last few years?

You are right, and a very good point. I should clarify what I meant. Physical CD unit sales are down, but so are new releases. If you account for the dramadic drop in new releases, which started in 2000, and then calculate the percentage of the actual releases that got sold, you see what the industry is selling a higher percentage of all releases across the board. Though total sales figures are down, because there's simply less new music. Not exactly what you expect if the industry is being 'eaten alive' by piracy.

From a peak of almost 40,000 new music albums in 2000, about 12,000 albums are what is getting published yearly in the last three years.

Imagine a music store that lost 2/3 of all its new releases, but somehow maintained 80% of its sales figures. Yes sales are down, but the percentage of existing product that is being sold is higher than it ever was. If new releaes were to rise back up, it would be safe to assume that sales figures would exceed past sales figures.

BTW, the RIAA intentionally stopped reporting new releases in 2001 less someone figure this out. But there are other sources for the numbers, just the industry itself doesn't want people to figure this out.

[rflashman]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I like satellite radio, too, as well as internet radio. But they don't play everything, and I still want to own music that I can't get from them.

Yeah, difference is I REFUSE to buy any music as a form of protest. So I'd rather just pay Sirius (car) and XM (home) instead.