Piracy Experiment

[puddych]

<<So the definition of "money grubbing" is "charging more than you want to pay for something", and because it's more than you want to pay, it's therefore okay for you to steal it?
<<<
<<Do you think that stealing from authors makes you a good person? Do you think that the best way to protest against a money grubbing society is to steal from authors? Really? <<
if I buy and pay for a physical copy of a book and then get a darkside vertion for my reader (e-reader slim light weighing machine easy to transport many books) in my book (pun intended)that is not stealing..that is aquiring a diferant vertion of something I have allready paid for!!!

Money grubbing is a lot of people over charging for something that may or may not be worth it...how many times have you bought a book and found it to be rubish and not worth the money...hah try to take it back to the book shop to get your money back...as in all things theire are variouse shades of grey...could you please explaine in which way I have done any auther out of money...

<<If you then make a number of copies and pass them out to your friends and family, what are you doing?
<<
I am lending -giving out to my family and freinds a paid for book as I would do with a paper vertion..the only differance is I do it all at once..I do not put it out where thousands can download...lets be honest (huh) one buys a book reads it and in 99% of cases it then soon ends up in the trash..There are only a few books worth reading over and over again in my case les miserables (the french vertion) and war and peace are 2 books that I reread once again every year and each time I discover something new and delight in meeting familier people and places...now a very silly question SHOULD I PAY AN AUTHER every time I REREAD HIS BOOK...a really silly question but in the extreme you could make a case for doing so!!
urs

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

There isn't really an infinite supply of copied e-books, as only a fairly limited # of people know how to download/convert/etc. It could easily be comparable to the # of used books in bookstores/craigslist wherever, if not much less.

Nonsense.

[lene1949]

No author will be loosing money for books pirated... People pirate books because they're not available in their country (no money lost, because they couldn't buy it anyway) - Books they have previously bought, but are now geo restricted (they have already got their money).. Books are too expensive (again... they wouldn't have bought a copy)

A first time author should put their book on the darknet (I think some of them do) to get some readers... Word-of-mouth is a powerful advertisement.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by lene1949

No author will be losing money for books pirated...

Perhaps fairer to say "significant amounts of money". I suspect that if commercial ebooks (in some impossible alternative reality) weren't available other than through purchase, some authors might see a few more sales.

But overall I agree. Piracy is not a significant factor, and should be ignored in terms of implementing technological measures to try to stop it.

I think it will be far more effective to tackle it by making the purchase of ebooks simpler, and encouraging social pressure against pirating ebooks.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by lene1949

No author will be loosing money for books pirated... People pirate books because they're not available in their country (no money lost, because they couldn't buy it anyway) - Books they have previously bought, but are now geo restricted (they have already got their money).. Books are too expensive (again... they wouldn't have bought a copy)

Do you seriously believe that nobody illegally download books simply because they want to get something for free, rather than pay for it?

[jhempel24]

over half the books I've downloaded from the dark-net would have never generated a sale from me in the first place. But if I happen to find a gem that I like, and didn't pay for, I usually go and buy more than one book from that author.

I don't think any sort of significant impact on the publishing industry is happening on the dark net.

[MrsJoseph]

Like I said before, there are a lot of selfish people on this thread. Guess what? YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. Get it? You took something from someone without permission and are now manufacturing reasons why it's ok. IT IS NOT OK.

Great quote from the comment section of the Vauxhall Vixen blog (emphasis mine):

Lots of people can't afford a car, yet if they steal one, no matter how badly they need it... they go to jail.

Lots of people are homeless, yet if they break in somewhere to get out of the cold, they go to jail.

Lots of people go hungry, along with their kids, but if they steal food, and get caught....well.

Sorry. Food and shelter are far more important than books. But they can't legitimize stealing those enough to escape the consequences, although I could understand THAT.

The anonymous arguing otherwise... the points you are trying to argue are issues that are all too often out of the author's control, price, availability in other countries, format, etc.

Yet you, like many others, feel the author should bear that burden. And we end up having to, and those who don't sell through, don't sell well enough-those authors are the ones who don't get contracts renewed.

It happens-I know of four fairly popular midlist authors that were wicked popular with pirates-and no, I'm not listing them because that is their business concern.

I've even seen pirates chatting about a couple of these authors, wondering when the next book is coming out. There won't be 'next books' because they didn't get new contracts.

Why? Nobody exactly knows, but a likely factor is flat sales.

Had some of those pirates purchased? Sales wouldn't have been so flat.

So there's a burden pirates get to carry. Forget the excuses and the rationalizations. Theft is theft and wrong is wrong.

Eventually publishing will catch up to the digital age-it moves slow, but it's a massive industry and nothing big can move fast. It's almost even a law of nature.

Once publishing catches up and they figure out a way to offer ebooks across the globe without causing problems with the foreign publishing arms they have in foreign countries, access to works will greatly improve.

And even once that happens, once DRM disappears and every is an ideal environment...theft will still happen because there are always people who want to take something for nothing, always those who'd rather steal, and always those who'd rather rationalize things away rather than just openly admit it's wrong, and just stop doing it.

[Ravensknight]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Like I said before, there are a lot of selfish people on this thread...

wow. Glad you are so qualified to make such character judgements.
I agree with you that piracy is morally wrong, but to go around calling everyone selfish who doesn't subscribe to your moral viewpoint, well, that seems very hubristic...

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Ravensknight

wow. Glad you are so qualified to make such character judgements.
I agree with you that piracy is morally wrong, but to go around calling everyone selfish who doesn't subscribe to your moral viewpoint, well, that seems very hubristic...

Hubris? I think not. Hubris is defined as “extreme haughtiness or arrogance.” You are saying that I am being arrogant by stating that stealing is wrong and people who steal and then make up excuses as to why they can’t even donate a dollar to the person they stole from is being selfish?

You don’t thing stealing is selfish? Your morals say it is ok to take from someone? What is your definition of selfish?

In the country in which I live, not only is taking something without permission considered wrong – it is also illegal. As far as I have learned, my country’s moral standpoint with this illegal activity is the same throughout 99% of the world. Please tell me how my moral viewpoint is so vastly different.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Like I said before, there are a lot of selfish people on this thread. Guess what? YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. Get it? You took something from someone without permission and are now manufacturing reasons why it's ok. IT IS NOT OK.

Great quote from the comment section of the Vauxhall Vixen blog (emphasis mine):

Wow, a clueless, whiny rant from some unknown, small-time author who thinks that she is ENTITLED to make a living from her writing. I'm convinced.

Message to whiny loser: In the writing field, you are a nobody. If 1 percent of the "tens of thousands" of pirated copies of your books were ever read, I'd be shocked. Also if 1/10th of one percent of them would have otherwise generated a sale.

(Edit-- in case it wasn't clear, my comment was directed at the blog rant, not the poster here.)

[bucsie]

I won't argue that downloading ebooks from the dark net is not stealing. I do feel for the authors and the publishers that lose money because of that. But I doubt that the percentage of dark-net readers influence the sales figures of any author to the extent that that writer is or is not signed for new contracts because of piracy.

Having said that, there is a cultural component to this whole darknet piracy. People who would not steal a candy have no qualms when it comes to mp3s. There is little tangibility to a file, it just doesn't feel like stealing.
Culturally speaking, being from an Eastern country where less that 5% of home users have even a legal OS - getting ebooks off the net is really not such a big deal. Everybody does it, nobody cares. Companies like Microsoft, Adobe are bleeding money if one compares software sales to actual users. I got laughed at for buying Vista last year, because I wanted to be legit. But the same people don't steal cars or food or clothes. It's just how they grew up.
So I can see and understand your outrage, but I doubt that you can understand my lack of shame.

[Ravensknight]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

You don’t thing stealing is selfish? Your morals say it is ok to take from someone? What is your definition of selfish?

Ok, let me write again, simply. I AGREE with you that piracy is morally wrong. I said that the first time. So why do you go off attacking me?

In the country in which I live, not only is taking something without permission considered wrong – it is also illegal. As far as I have learned, my country’s moral standpoint with this illegal activity is the same throughout 99% of the world. Please tell me how my moral viewpoint is so vastly different.

Moral and legal are NOT the same thing. Just remember slavery. As new situations arise, the legality must change, even if the moral underpinning is the same.

Hubris? I think not. Hubris is defined as “extreme haughtiness or arrogance.” You are saying that I am being arrogant by stating that stealing is wrong and people who steal and then make up excuses as to why they can’t even donate a dollar to the person they stole from is being selfish?

Back on topic. I used the word hubristic because you are setting yourself up in judgement over everyone else on an issue where the legal has not been well defined yet, because the moral hasn't been dealt with. I am not saying you are hubristic for saying that stealing is wrong. I am saying it is because you are calling anyone who disagrees with you on this subject selfish.

[bucsie]

I think lots of people would actually pay small amounts to the authors for books they really enjoyed.
I wonder if a popular author would care to make an experiment of this: set up a paypal account and ask people who read their books off the dark net to donate as much as they feel their work was worth. It would be interesting to see the results.

I have seen authors complain that they get maybe $1/book sold (I hope I remember correctly the amount) and that the publishers get the big cut. So actually donating the author $1 would be almost like buying the book.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

That's a joke, right? Your idea of choice is for an author to report that his work has been taken without permission and to have it removed? That's like saying that someone can commit a violation against you, but you can report it. Uh, swell!

Yes, and then they can't violate you again. Isn't that better than just being violated continuously? (Assuming you mind being violated, of course). I know of a few writers who take this choice, and also others who choose not to because they see benefits to people reading their work whether they pay for it or not. What would be your alternative? Deny the writers who don't care the chance of being read?

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The scale is precisely the problem.
______
Dennis

The scale is also impossible to estimate. You can count the number of downloads (assuming it isn't just one book included in a big 2,000 book zip), but that won't tell you how many people read it. And if they don't read it, I don't see what difference it makes if they download it.