My journey into the darknet

[killdanzig]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I've pretty much come to the point where if there's an ebook version I'll buy it, and if there's not, I have no qualms about getting a darknet version. I have no sympathy for authors and publishers who want to restrict publication to analog versions. I'm not going to haul around a two inch thick book when there's an e-version available, and I'm certainly not going to reward people for not selling me what I want, and insisting that it's the two inch thick book, or nothing. They can have their wish - they sell me nothing.

So, do I think I need to jump through hoops to compensate the author? Nope. It's real simple to get me to pay for an ebook - have one available to sell.

this so sums up my feelings.

me and the wife have both been looking to drop books and get a little more environmentally friendly. yes we are aware of the carbon footprint of an ereader/ipad, but the long term impact on trees is a lot more devastating.

however, it seems that 80-90% of the books, magazines and comics that we want are not available in an ereader form.

how can someone make money off me if they don't make the product available for purchase? nice catch-22 that they put themselves in.

the overhead for making an e-file is very little compared to the paying of the logging company to cut down the tree, the transport company to move the tree, the papermill workers to unload and process the tree, the transport company to pick up the finished paper to deliver to the printer, the ink and processing of the medium into final form, the transport company again to pick up and deliver to publisher warehouse, picked up again and delivered to retailer warehouse, delivered again to final retailer store front.

you would think that somewhere within that EXTREMELY simplified wall-o-text that someone could sit at a computer and make a single scan of the product and upload/distribute it for sale.

seems pretty simple to me. *readies fire suit for impending flaming of over simplification*

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by killdanzig

you would think that somewhere within that EXTREMELY simplified wall-o-text that someone could sit at a computer and make a single scan of the product and upload/distribute it for sale.p

They wouldn't need to scan anything, the book would already exist in electronic form prior to the printing stage. The print industry was one of the first to go entirely digital some time in the early to mid 80s.

[Iphinome]

killdanzig: The paper part of a book I'm told isn't overly expensive but still it's hard to imagine the fixed cost of producing an ebook from a publisher's backlist to be very high especially for anything written in the computer age.

It might however require a new contract with the author (difficult if they're dead thank you congress for absurdly long copyright... asshats)

Originally Posted by Harmon

I've pretty much come to the point where if there's an ebook version I'll buy it, and if there's not, I have no qualms about getting a darknet version. I have no sympathy for authors and publishers who want to restrict publication to analog versions. I'm not going to haul around a two inch thick book when there's an e-version available, and I'm certainly not going to reward people for not selling me what I want, and insisting that it's the two inch thick book, or nothing. They can have their wish - they sell me nothing.

So, do I think I need to jump through hoops to compensate the author? Nope. It's real simple to get me to pay for an ebook - have one available to sell.

We are actually in agreement there 100%, well almost. For the record I just misread your original post to mean that you had found the book in e-book format on Amazon.


I actually don't encounter that problem often with recent titles but do so all the time with older, but still in copyright, material. It is funny that kildanzig used the expression “catch-22” above because that is a title I would dearly like to see as an e-book. Hint hint, Amazon. I also understand that it's a business decision on the part of Amazon; To obtain Joseph Heller's permission (Amazon can't afford to flout copyright like 'darknet' participants), to pay to have the book scanned, proofed, and formatted as an e-book they have to anticipate that enough e-book copies will be purchased in order to justify it all financially. Unfortunately this analysis must take in to account the fact that there are those out there who think it is there right to obtain if for free once it become available on the 'darknet;' that it can easily be purchased be damned.

Right now I am actually creating an e-book of another such older 'orphan' title. Believe me buy the time I am done accounting for the hours spent in scanning, proofing, and formatting into an epub file I could have purchased well over a hundred e-books at current prices. So I am not doing it for financial purposes. Even this is a gray area to me even though I purchased a used paperback for the scanning – paying a bit extra to get it in large print; really helps with the scanning/OCR don't you know-I don't have permission from the copyright holder. I justify it to myself by the fact that I don't see how I have cost the author any sales or revenue.

I will even admit that having put so much effort into the task that the thought of sharing the result, for free of course, has occurred to me. Oh, my god I can't believe I am even thinking that. I won't though because I do believe in intellectual property rights.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

I actually don't encounter that problem often with recent titles but do so all the time with older, but still in copyright, material. It is funny that kildanzig used the expression “catch-22” above because that is a title I would dearly like to see as an e-book. Hint hint, Amazon. I also understand that it's a business decision on the part of Amazon; To obtain Joseph Heller's permission (Amazon can't afford to flout copyright like 'darknet' participants), to pay to have the book scanned, proofed, and formatted as an e-book they have to anticipate that enough e-book copies will be purchased in order to justify it all financially. Unfortunately this analysis must take in to account the fact that there are those out there who think it is there right to obtain if for free once it become available on the 'darknet;' that it can easily be purchased be damned.

Yeah, there's a kind of "ebook lag" problem for books dating from about 1950 to the present. Books that are still being reprinted, but not eprinted. There's a cost in moving those books into digital, and that cost might exceed the potential profit, for all I know. So the publishers could well have a problem, I suppose.

But Heller & Catch-22, that's a different matter. Heller is dead, so it's his estate. And C-22 probably sells the most copies as required reading in college. Ebook form is perfect for that book.

I just bought a pbook of The Annotated Alice. Now I ask you, is there a better time to have an ebook version of that book? And is there a better book to have an ebook version of? So where the heck is the ebook? Hello? Anyone listening?

I don't think that people will go to the darknet if there's an "ease of use" established channel. I buy some things on Amazon that cost me a buck or two more than I could get the same item at some other place, for the simple reason that Amazon makes it simple.

I think that with the issuance of the iPad, whether as a cause or merely coincidence, ebooks are about to take off. We'll see if publishers have enough sense to go with the flow, or decide to train a generation of readers to use the darknet, because the regular channels don't deliver.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Right now I am actually creating an e-book of another such older 'orphan' title. Believe me buy the time I am done accounting for the hours spent in scanning, proofing, and formatting into an epub file I could have purchased well over a hundred e-books at current prices. So I am not doing it for financial purposes. Even this is a gray area to me even though I purchased a used paperback for the scanning – paying a bit extra to get it in large print; really helps with the scanning/OCR don't you know-I don't have permission from the copyright holder. I justify it to myself by the fact that I don't see how I have cost the author any sales or revenue.

Not to worry, if you are in the States. Perfectly legal. You are just format shifting.

I will even admit that having put so much effort into the task that the thought of sharing the result, for free of course, has occurred to me. Oh, my god I can't believe I am even thinking that. I won't though because I do believe in intellectual property rights.

I wouldn't have any problem, myself, giving a copy to members of my family. But anyone else - let them scan their own. Had I not found a darknet copy of the Book I'm reading, I'd have scanned it.

[Jaime_Astorga]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

I will even admit that having put so much effort into the task that the thought of sharing the result, for free of course, has occurred to me. Oh, my god I can't believe I am even thinking that. I won't though because I do believe in intellectual property rights.

Shame, that means the person to put it onto the darknets will essentially be replicating your work rather than spending that time doing something else, essentially reinventing the wheel.

[nikkers]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

Rubbish! I can't agree with this. The whole ebooks fiasco is an attempt by the Bourgeoisie to exclude the proletariat from reading by creating a highly-priced entry point to be able to read at all. Thank goodness that the publishing industry is supporting the people against the rising technocracy by undermining the ebook at every opportunity. Prices are rightly being set by adding together the price of the available paper versions, factoring in the cost of ebook conversion, and then making up a number. Proof-reading is being reserved for paper copies so as to benefit the workers rather than the few, bourgois "e-readers" who are quite capable of proof-reading themselves - otherwise, how would they see any errors? DRM and goegraphic restrictions are being applied to limit the spread of any infection.

Publishers who stick with paper will be the true victors, with those who waste resources on the doomed "e" format in danger of losing the means of production of real books.

[nikkers]

How about starting our own publishing company "Red Flag Publishing" or "Under the Bed Darknet"

[mores]

How about "the pirate bookstore".



As to sharing your own scanned, proofed and formatted version of a book, I would not share it either, other than family and close friends (In my case that's about as many as I have fingers on my left hand [yes, 5]).

A thought just occurred to me ... would it be possible to send that file to the original publisher, or copyright holder, or whoever, and offer it to them so that they can then sell it legitimately? Maybe ask for compensation?
Is that advisable?

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by mores

A thought just occurred to me ... would it be possible to send that file to the original publisher, or copyright holder, or whoever, and offer it to them so that they can then sell it legitimately? Maybe ask for compensation?
Is that advisable?

I suppose it depends if you enjoy lawsuits or not.

[Logseman]

Originally Posted by mores

How about "the pirate bookstore".



As to sharing your own scanned, proofed and formatted version of a book, I would not share it either, other than family and close friends (In my case that's about as many as I have fingers on my left hand [yes, 5]).

A thought just occurred to me ... would it be possible to send that file to the original publisher, or copyright holder, or whoever, and offer it to them so that they can then sell it legitimately? Maybe ask for compensation?
Is that advisable?

I don't think it would work. It's not like they don't publish the book because they don't have an editable manuscript (particularly in novels from the last 20 years which are already written in computers), but usually because they don't see how they can sell such a book with a profit. Ebooks are still a minority niche, filled with geeks, Fan-Sci fans, public domain, darknet users and a Kindle dominion.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by mores

A thought just occurred to me ... would it be possible to send that file to the original publisher, or copyright holder, or whoever, and offer it to them so that they can then sell it legitimately? Maybe ask for compensation?
Is that advisable?

I've considered contacting some authors of out-of-print books & offering to convert their works to ebooks for free, if they're willing to offer them for sale in non-DRM'd formats.

Originally Posted by Logseman

I don't think it would work. It's not like they don't publish the book because they don't have an editable manuscript (particularly in novels from the last 20 years which are already written in computers), but usually because they don't see how they can sell such a book with a profit. Ebooks are still a minority niche, filled with geeks, Fan-Sci fans, public domain, darknet users and a Kindle dominion.

Anything not published in the last 10 years, they probably don't have a digital copy of. Publishers often don't keep digital copies once the print run is done, and print-ready digital copies from more than 10 years ago generally weren't PDFs, so even if they still have them, they're not usable. This may include anything not released as an ebook when it was published, even more recently; the publisher may not have a digital file if the book is considered out-of-print.

That's why so many backlist ebooks are full of atrocious OCR errors--they're chopping & scanning a pbook because nobody has the final digital file anymore.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Anything not published in the last 10 years, they probably don't have a digital copy of. Publishers often don't keep digital copies once the print run is done, and print-ready digital copies from more than 10 years ago generally weren't PDFs, so even if they still have them, they're not usable. This may include anything not released as an ebook when it was published, even more recently; the publisher may not have a digital file if the book is considered out-of-print.

That's why so many backlist ebooks are full of atrocious OCR errors--they're chopping & scanning a pbook because nobody has the final digital file anymore.

And as I have learned from other earlier threads, from professionals in the industry, anything older than five years old (today) is likely not existing in electronic format, nor was it saved after publication. Publishers are (apparently) notoriously conservative.

[GhostHawk]

Someone was sleeping at the switch if that is indeed the case.
But that doesn't surprise me much.