Bob Dylan wins Nobel Prize for Literature

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

I always preferred Sundown.

[william z]

Originally Posted by Krazykiwi

I didn't forget them, well at least western opera and operetta, as they are more heavily based in musical traditions with the lyrics are generally written after and according to the music. That said, lyric poetry can and always has been later set to music as operatic librettos.




Heh. "Only popular in China?" You are aware exactly how big that audience is? I guess it doesn't count, since it doesn't agree with you.



That is simply not true William. Five minutes on virtually any search engine would tell you that the definitions of the literary terms "Dramatic Poetry" and "Lyric Poetry" have always included either musical accompaniment or flat out singing.



I don't understand why it's so difficult to admit that there are other opinions on where the line is between lyrics and poetry, or that there even is a line. You seem to be conflating "American readers of literature (particularly those named William)" with "All readers of literature" when that's simply not the case. Which again, is my whole point. There are a lot of diverging opinions and some of the people who hold those differing opinions happen to be members of the Svenska Akadamien. And it's their decision, not yours, what is "Literature" according to the terms of Nobel's will.

But I'm done arguing, you've made your opinion quite clear.

Well, you may be confused because you seem to think I am American. I am not, but does not American culture have great infuence in the world, more so than the culture of any other country? I doubt if very many people in much of the world ever ever heard of the Svenska Akadamien. Probably you look at things from very much of a Swedish perspective.

We can argue all we want about what is literature and what is not; in my opinion some song lyrics could be poetry; you can put together two sentences or part sentences that may or may not ryhme and call it poetry.
How about this one from "The Literary Life Of Thingum Bob" by Edgar Allan Poe:

"'To pen an Ode upon the 'Oil-of-Bob'
Is all sorts of a job.
(Signed) Snob."

"Protest songs" are always political; the lyrics appeal to people because they express the political or societal views they hold. When Dylan came along he was embraced by a certain segment of the population and they came to regard him as their "spokesman." Those type of people were out demonstrating against war and for peace. They often marched in support of dictators like Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong, Idi Amin, Fidel Castro and others before they knew of their atrocities.

No doubt Bob Dylan has a huge audience who must like his songs; he has sold about 100 million records (although the figures for record sales are notoriously inaccurate). Obviously anybody who buys his records must like them; no doubt some of them think his lyrics are great.

So Chinese opera is popular in China so somehow that makes it literature? In the first place, Chinese opera is not popular with everyone in China, I doubt if it has an audience a small fraction as big as the latest Hollywood movie in China. Chinese opera is an ancient, highly stylized form, as is Japanese Noh. It is part of Chinese culture and to the extent it is popular, that is only in China. I have never been to China, but I have spent time in Japan and would bet that at least 90% of Japanese have never seen a Noh play.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion (at least in some countries). Obviously your opinion does not jibe with mine. I don't think Bob Dylan's lyrics are literature, and even if they are they are not deserving of the Nobel Prize for literature

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

I heard knowing that song was required for Canadian citizenship.

It is, but only for draf ... political refugees.-)

[tilia]

The Telegraph has an interview with Bob Dylan. When asked if he'll be at the seremony: "Absolutely," he says. "If it’s at all possible."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-f...ze-ceremony-i/

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by tilia

The Telegraph has an interview with Bob Dylan. He says he'll be at the seremony - "If it’s at all possible.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-f...ze-ceremony-i/

Good ol' Bob!

[AnotherCat]

If he gets there (I reckon chances are that he will :-)) I wonder what his acceptance speech will be about.

[william z]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

If he gets there (I reckon chances are that he will :-)) I wonder what his acceptance speech will be about.

"Mumble, mumble...the answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind."

[Krazykiwi]

Originally Posted by william z

Well, you may be confused because you seem to think I am American. I am not, but does not American culture have great infuence in the world, more so than the culture of any other country? I doubt if very many people in much of the world ever ever heard of the Svenska Akadamien. Probably you look at things from very much of a Swedish perspective.

I'm from New Zealand actually, I rather think my perspective is more "Oh my gosh, there are a bunch of other perspectives out there that aren't exactly the same as the ones I was raised in, and boy are some of them weird and hard to understand - but that doesn't make them wrong."

But Canadian is American, no? (But I can admit I thought you were from the US, my bad

It doesn't matter who's heard of the Svenska Akadamien: They are the people who have awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature every year there has been one, and they really have the only opinion that matters on the issue.

If they make a habit of giving it to people who the majority of the world feel don't deserve it, then the majority of the world will simply deem the Nobel irrelevant and ignore it I guess.

Originally Posted by william z

So Chinese opera is popular in China so somehow that makes it literature?

That would be a ridiculously silly statement, which is likely why it's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said. What I did say, was that Chinese Opera is considered part of the spectrum of dramatic poetry. How popular it is, or is not, and where, was your topic. I was simply pointing out that poetic forms as performance art involving music is far a fairly widespread tradition. Widespread, not popular. For that matter, "literature" isn't as popular as the latest Hollywood Blockbuster either, so once again I'm confused what your argument is.

How many people go to see something performed has little to do with what the something is. Relatively few people go to see opera or independent theatre, but most people can still identify them as music and drama respectively.

In any case, Dylan has finally broken his silence and will probably be in Stockholm in November, accepting that irrelevant award from those dudes (and dudettes) you've never heard of. So we can go on arguing this until the tenth of never and it won't change a darn thing.

Originally Posted by kennyc

Good ol' Bob!

His ways may seem serpentine, but he is a consummate showman.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

If he gets there (I reckon chances are that he will :-)) I wonder what his acceptance speech will be about.

"Thank you. I'm honored. Bye."
Probably mumbled, head lowered.

[doubleshuffle]

Well, his last award acceptance speech was a rather lengthy affair:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...207-story.html

[william z]

Originally Posted by Krazykiwi

I'm from New Zealand actually, I rather think my perspective is more "Oh my gosh, there are a bunch of other perspectives out there that aren't exactly the same as the ones I was raised in, and boy are some of them weird and hard to understand - but that doesn't make them wrong."

But Canadian is American, no? (But I can admit I thought you were from the US, my bad

It doesn't matter who's heard of the Svenska Akadamien: They are the people who have awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature every year there has been one, and they really have the only opinion that matters on the issue.

If they make a habit of giving it to people who the majority of the world feel don't deserve it, then the majority of the world will simply deem the Nobel irrelevant and ignore it I guess.



That would be a ridiculously silly statement, which is likely why it's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said. What I did say, was that Chinese Opera is considered part of the spectrum of dramatic poetry. How popular it is, or is not, and where, was your topic. I was simply pointing out that poetic forms as performance art involving music is far a fairly widespread tradition. Widespread, not popular. For that matter, "literature" isn't as popular as the latest Hollywood Blockbuster either, so once again I'm confused what your argument is.

How many people go to see something performed has little to do with what the something is. Relatively few people go to see opera or independent theatre, but most people can still identify them as music and drama respectively.

In any case, Dylan has finally broken his silence and will probably be in Stockholm in November, accepting that irrelevant award from those dudes (and dudettes) you've never heard of. So we can go on arguing this until the tenth of never and it won't change a darn thing.

Canadian is not the same as American. Different culture, different political system, different people. That may be a New Zealand perspective, just as the perspective of many people is that New Zealand is pretty much the same as Australia. But there is no doubt that US culture. good and bad, has had more influence in the world than the culture of any other country for some time now.

Whether or not the Nobel Prizes or any other such prizes are relevant or irrevalent doesn't matter; no doubt many people think they are and many people do not. When it comes to something like a discovery in physics or medicine it is much different than literature or a "peace prize" which are subjective and the opinions of the people who make the selection. Of course everybody has different opinions (the ones who are able to think for themselves, that is). There are all kinds of "awards" for something or other, my favorites in Canada and the USA are small, closed circles of members of print and broadcast media presenting awards to each other and telling each other and themselves what great journalists and reporters they are.

Many Nobel Prize selections have been puzzling to me, such as Barack Obama winning the Peace Prize when he had done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Why, was the reason political or was it wishful thinking? Don't ask me, I don't know.

When it comes to the Nobel Prize for literature, I have read many of the works of winners, some I liked and some I did not. To my mind, most of the winners deserved the prize, some did not (Pearl S. Buck?). A few times winning a Nobel Prize for literature encouraged me to read their works if I hadn't. But I won't be rushing out to buy a book of Bob Dylan's song lyrics or poems or whatever you might want to call them (if there is even such a book available). In my opinion they are not worthy of a Nobel Prize for literature.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by william z

Canadian is not the same as American. Different culture, different political system, different people. That may be a New Zealand perspective, just as the perspective of many people is that New Zealand is pretty much the same as Australia. But there is no doubt that US culture. good and bad, has had more influence in the world than the culture of any other country for some time now.

Whether or not the Nobel Prizes or any other such prizes are relevant or irrevalent doesn't matter; no doubt many people think they are and many people do not. When it comes to something like a discovery in physics or medicine it is much different than literature or a "peace prize" which are subjective and the opinions of the people who make the selection. Of course everybody has different opinions (the ones who are able to think for themselves, that is). There are all kinds of "awards" for something or other, my favorites in Canada and the USA are small, closed circles of members of print and broadcast media presenting awards to each other and telling each other and themselves what great journalists and reporters they are.

Many Nobel Prize selections have been puzzling to me, such as Barack Obama winning the Peace Prize when he had done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Why, was the reason political or was it wishful thinking? Don't ask me, I don't know.

When it comes to the Nobel Prize for literature, I have read many of the works of winners, some I liked and some I did not. To my mind, most of the winners deserved the prize, some did not (Pearl S. Buck?). A few times winning a Nobel Prize for literature encouraged me to read their works if I hadn't. But I won't be rushing out to buy a book of Bob Dylan's song lyrics or poems or whatever you might want to call them (if there is even such a book available). In my opinion they are not worthy of a Nobel Prize for literature.

Bob Dylan's book has been mentioned and linked at least twice in this thread.

Your opinion has been noted many times. Since it seems you do not like the Nobel committee's choices, please do not buy or use anything that they approve of. That should show them the error of their ways.

[AnotherCat]

As Dylan has appeared in a number of films my mind wandered to where films sat in respect to literature, something I had not considered before.

So I had a browse through the English Literature courses of a number of prominent universities and found that not only do some of them include specific papers on Film but also, heaven forbid, have papers that include the study of Song Lyrics as well (MIT is just one example and even mentions Dylan among others).

So there we have it, not only are song lyrics part of our literary heritage, films are too .

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

...but also, heaven forbid, have papers that include the study of Song Lyrics as well (MIT is just one example and even mentions Dylan among others).

Do they mention the Wiggles?

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Potato
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Cold spegetti, cold spegetti
Cold spegetti, cold spegetti
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Spegetti
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