DRM Good or Bad?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes again.

We are indeed. The PDFs you're using do technically have DRM (in that they, as you say, prevent certain uses, e.g. printing).

But these limits only apply when used with software that obeys them. There's no actual encryption of the PDF contents, only some extra metadata asking the viewing program not to allow certain things.

Since the PDF can be read without a password, calibre can convert it to some other format.

I must admit that I don't often use PDFs, and I'd forgotten that this limited form of password-protected DRM was possible.

So, let me be a little more precise in my language.

Calibre does not contain any code that circumvents DRM that effectively controls access to the content of ebooks.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

So does Calibre break the DRM or will it just not convert it? Because it converts secured PDF's which is similar.

Here's my error. I interpreted "secured PDFs" as "encrypted PDFs". My apologies.

Converting secured PDFs is not similar to breaking DRM that involves encryption and so effectively controls access to the contents.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Here's my error. I interpreted "secured PDFs" as "encrypted PDFs". My apologies.

Converting secured PDFs is not similar to breaking DRM that involves encryption and so effectively controls access to the contents.

Well I'm sorry, but at the risk of being rude, maybe you should read what people actually say instead of always trying to prove them wrong out of hand. I know that I've been guilty of this too, but that knowledge doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Well I'm sorry, but at the risk of being rude, maybe you should read what people actually say instead of always trying to prove them wrong out of hand. I know that I've been guilty of this too, but that knowledge doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

I apologise again.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Why would you want to set your pdf so that you can only open it with a password, that would really upset people and defeat the object.

Why would you want to set your ebook so it can only be read on a specific device? Wouldn't that just upset people too?

B&N's epubs require a password to open. Apparently, many people are happy with that approach to ebook sales.

I doubt Calibre will open PDFs encrypted with Vitrium's "ProtectedPDF" software. It's what some online universities use... it not only requires a password to open, it has to check in with the server every time it's opened. Only currently-registered student IDs can read the locked PDFs.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Well I'm sorry, but at the risk of being rude, maybe you should read what people actually say instead of always trying to prove them wrong out of hand. I know that I've been guilty of this too, but that knowledge doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

At the risk of being called a smartass: some people wouldn't even never notice this pseudo limits on the files given to them, just because of said reading sw dependency. I know that KDEs ocular doesn't mind e.g. the print prohibition bit so no wonder one forgets sometimes this crap exists, especially if you rarely are hindered by it. Using linux be it even on some of ones machines makes such quite probable. Give peace now pal.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

If we have any people on the board with lots of money they don't know what to do with, they could put the book borrowing honor system to the test. Fund a study where someone picks a branch public library somewhere, and eliminate checkout. Just put up a sign saying that patrons are asked to bring back all books within three weeks. Then see in a couple of months how many books are left in that library, with the philanthropist funding replacement.

And once again we are conflating physical books with electronic books while forgetting that they are not the same thing.

If I forget to return a physical book to the library, they don't have it anymore.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Well I'm sorry, but at the risk of being rude, maybe you should read what people actually say instead of always trying to prove them wrong out of hand. I know that I've been guilty of this too, but that knowledge doesn’t make it any less frustrating.

Maybe, if you wanted to know if Calibre could convert a PDF that had the edit permission restricted, then you should have asked that, rather than referring to ambiguous and inappropriately juxtaposed concepts, and being rude to people who couldn't read your mind.

[speakingtohe]

Just curious what is obscure about secured PDF? I admire pdurrant for admitting he was not fully informed.

Helen

[frahse]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You obviously don't care about your readers.

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

DRM doesn't help you. It doesn't stop anyone from making an illegal copy.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Bottom line: In the last few years, Patricia Ryan has gotten ~$30 from me, minus whatever Smashwords takes.

Ellen O'Connell has gotten $12 from me, $3 for each book she offers, and will -- more of the same --

You have gotten $0 from me. As long as your works are DRMd, you will continue to get $0 from me. Also, I won't be recommending your works to other readers, because I haven't read them, because they're offered in formats I find inaccessible.

How is DRM helping your bottom line? Who is buying your work because of DRM, who wouldn't buy it otherwise?

You know the old saying "Opinions are like a****." Everyone has one.

All of you have opinions that are yours. I too have the opinion that I state above and it seems to be working for me.

Elfwreck, you don't know that you haven't read my work. Granted you haven't read a drm copy, but besides that, you can't be sure. I have been around a bit longer than eBooks in general. I will point to first ISBN issued to an ebook in 1998, and the MS Reader in 2000 as the practical first dates, with more in 2002 and the start of wide use maybe 2005 with Amazon mobi and 2004 and 2006 with Sony.
Sure my books can be and are pirated. I check on that on occasion. Sort of like going in the book store and checking the racks.

A few authors make a decision to not use DRM and then most of those publicize that in order to curry favor with "their public."

How many significant authors do you know that do that?

Bottom line?
Only one year has seen me make more from books than engineering. That was that "ghosted biography" I mentioned elsewhere, a once in a lifetime event. Of course then I was still a young engineer and didn't have the same position with the company I now enjoy. My wife who is an entrepreneur herself reminds me occasionally that I have a job I enjoy, a high position with an interest in the company that will continue when I retire, and that it is very steady and dependable. What author can claim that? Not many?

DRM has faults but it is the best system available. Hopefully it will get better, and perhaps in the future once a book is sold to a person, in DRM form for a certain eReader, that person will have a lifetime ability to transfer that one copy of the book to any eReader they then choose.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Lets say that a reader switches to a different brand of reader, and wants to migrate their books. Or two people get married, and they have two different brands of readers, and want to merge their bookshelves. They aren't asking for anything but to be able to read books that they paid for. If they can easily move their books, they will do that. But the more difficult you make it, the more likely that they won't even bother to remove the DRM, but instead simply download the book from pirate sites. Once they are going to pirate sites, they become increasingly likely to download not only books they have already paid for, but to download books that they haven't paid for.

Lets just say that the reader of pbooks gets visually impaired and wants a large font edition. Is this traditionally offered as a free upgrade if he has already bought the paperback or hard cover? Do people who go blind get an audiobook for free from the author/publisher(I actually think they should but not likely). Are people without a microwave or stove entitled to have TV dinners transformed to another format?

Where I wonder are the thousands (or even hundreds of people) who have lost there content due to an ereader change. The excuse/justification for piracy is that it could happen. And of course it could, but the reports of people losing their ebook priveledges from Amazon et. al. are sneered at in an unbecoming fashion by those who advocate their rights to pirate because Amazon or someone else may possibly do that to them some day. Pigs may not fly before this happens but they will at least have little wings on thier hoooves.

Helen

[ApK]

Originally Posted by frahse

DRM has faults but it is the best system available.

How is DRM a better system than no DRM?

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by ApK

How is DRM a better system than no DRM?

It give the author the illusion of control and helps them sleep better at night?

That's the only practical effect, since there's never been a DRM system, for any medium, that wasn't broken. In fact, the more elaborate, the more likley it is to be broken and/or circumvented. Geeks like challenges.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by frahse

Elfwreck, you don't know that you haven't read my work.

I didn't say I hadn't read your works (although I don't think I have); just that you hadn't gotten any money from me. That, I'm fairly sure of. I'm very selective about what pbooks I buy new; it's a tiny handful and mostly nonfiction. (Religious books & gaming books.)

Granted you haven't read a drm copy, but besides that, you can't be sure. I have been around a bit longer than eBooks in general. I will point to first ISBN issued to an ebook in 1998, and the MS Reader in 2000 as the practical first dates, with more in 2002 and the start of wide use maybe 2005 with Amazon mobi and 2004 and 2006 with Sony.

I have bought exactly zero ebooks with device-specific DRM. I have bought a number of locked PDFs, which I then tear the locks off of so I can crop the whitespace out so they're somewhat tolerable on my Sony.

A few authors make a decision to not use DRM and then most of those publicize that in order to curry favor with "their public."

How many significant authors do you know that do that?

Depends on how you define "significant." And what kind of announcement you count as "currying favor."

The most obvious answer is "that lady who wrote something about teenage wizards." Other than her? Harlan Ellison. Diane Duane. Lois McMaster Bujold. But listing authors is pointless if I don't know your criteria for "significant."

Bottom line?
Only one year has seen me make more from books than engineering.

But you're still insisting that DRM is better for you economically. Or perhaps you're making a firm statement of "because my main income doesn't come from books, I don't care how many readers I'm losing by not offering more flexibility." Which is not what most authors mean when they say a decision is better for their "bottom line."

DRM has faults but it is the best system available.

For whom? For authors whose readers don't bother recommending their books to friends who can't afford them right now? Children learning to read, who'll be better off if their parents need to buy every book new? Teenagers learning to enjoy literature, who'll appreciate it more if every book costs a week's allowance and they can't share it with their friends?

In the long run, whom does DRM benefit?

Hopefully it will get better, and perhaps in the future once a book is sold to a person, in DRM form for a certain eReader, that person will have a lifetime ability to transfer that one copy of the book to any eReader they then choose.

"Lifetime?" Why can't they leave their ebooks to their heirs? Why can't they transfer ownership of that ebook just like they can with pbooks?

I have no idea how you think DRM could get "better." As long as people have access to keyboards, there will be no perfect DRM. The earliest bootleg books on the internet weren't scanned-and-OCR'd; they were typed in. While almost any DRM can be cracked by talented hackers, the *simplest* way around DRM is just to display the book on one device, and type the contents into another.

But it's not like we're going to run out of copying & screencapping tools, nor that encryption will somehow get better. It can't--because in order for the customer to read the book, they need the key. Then it's not a matter of "how do I break the encryption" but "how do I copy content out of one program into another"--a much simpler puzzle, because if it's displaying, it's somewhere in the computer's temporary storage.

[Justin Nemo]

Originally Posted by ApK

Maybe, if you wanted to know if Calibre could convert a PDF that had the edit permission restricted, then you should have asked that, rather than referring to ambiguous and inappropriately juxtaposed concepts, and being rude to people who couldn't read your mind.

You obliviously didn't read any further back than you had to either did you? Well to save you the trouble, here’s what I said to Elfwreck:

“OK the way I see it, and I may be wrong, it has been said before, is if you have your ebook library in Calibre, which is in a folder on your hard disc and let's say you add a mobi to your library. If you change your ereader and want to reread it, you plug in your ereader and drop the book onto the device icon and Calibre will convert it to your new format. So does Calibre break the DRM or will it just not convert it? Because it converts secured PDF's which is similar. ”

If you'd followed this thread you would know that I wasn't asking that question, but talking about something entirely different. I don't expect you to be a mind reader, just a reader.