The Vent and Rant Thread

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Hitch

And, seriously: do you really, really think that a MAN you know is going to publicly admit that his wife "won't let him" buy something, unless he was completely in accord with it?

....

No offense, but it sounds utter bollox to me. I'm sure you believe it, and maybe you know some people who've been in cracked relationships like that, but I don't.

The only thing I can say is: believe it. I've heard more than one very angry conversation of people who thought they were alone enough (on the other side of a flimsy condo wall), on phones in coffee breaks and even in public transport. Imagine hearing something like this:

"So why can't I replace that laptop?"
1. ...
"Next month it's 7 years old and too slow for what I use it for."
2. ....
"In that case, it might be another 30 years!"
3. ....
"WE GOT OVER €20K IN THE BANK YOU.... <strangled noise> !!!"

I think most people would fill in the gaps like this:

1. But you just got it.
2. But it's not broken yet.
3. We can't afford it right now.

(Or I'm hearing the other side. Many people here don't find it a problem to 'discuss' domestic problems in public transport, and not only about money....)

Originally Posted by Hitch

Right. By getting to the same exact "decision" in a non-confrontational way? And who said that the Dutch woman 'exploded,' exactly? Other than saying (as reported, mind you), "no?" "No" is an explosion?

Nah. Shrieking and screaming after not getting "No" accepted as a valid reason is, however.

This is why women are so good with horses. (I'll bet the horse thinks it's a balanced outcome, too.)

I'm very good with all kinds of animals, including dogs and horses, and now you're telling me that's the province of women. Therefore I'm either out of whack as a man, or I'm a woman and don't know it yet

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

I think so too. But unfortunately, in Japanese culture, a man can not advance though his company unless he is married. Although an unwritten rule, it is still an important one. This is one reason why 'arranged marriages' still account for more than 30% of all Japanese families. In fact, my niece-in-law just married this way. She put her name in with a marriage broker as she was 29 yrs old and still single. Too old for the traditional dating game in Japan. She married a very nice 30yr old man who also placed himself in the hands of a marriage broker.

So THAT could be the reason why I'm so easily finding so many marriage/dating sites that only seem to be targeted at the Japanese market. It's easier to find those than to find tulips in the Netherlands.... especially a lot of 30-ish men that desperately seem to want to marry anyone ASAP but without leaving Japan, and a lot of 30-ish women who, according to you, are out of the 'normal' loop over there already, and very often want to leave Japan.

Yes, and no... Japanese men still put in 60-70 hour weeks as the norm. They just don't get paid for the overtime. Karoshi still exists, and you hear about it regularly in the news, usually when a family is trying to sue the company. But the problem is, again culturally, that the man feels obligated to put in those hours so his company can prosper. If given a 5-day vacation, he will usually only take 3 days then go back to work because he really wants his company to get ahead and feels a devotion to it that we in the West will never understand. It's his 'duty' to be there for the company.

I would do such things only if it was MY OWN company. Working hard is one thing. Working 50-75% overtime for 'the company' without pay is nuts. IMHO, of course.

Me too. That's one of the reasons I was so attracted to my wife. She doesn't like the traditional model either, and so our family life is quite well balanced. We discuss as much as possible, yet will both make unilateral decisions when needed, and have them supported by the other as being justified. It's a nice blend of East and West. There ARE women who are not cultural extremists.

Happy you. But indeed, I do see a lot of 25-35-ish Japanese women on those dating sites who are probably expected to stop working when they get married to do the proper thing, and they don't want to do it that way.

They don't say it that bluntly, but they use sentences such as:

"I have studied X and would like to continue to improve in my work by learning the customs of your country."
"I have worked at... for X years, and would like to help provide good finances for our family, while you support me in learning your language..."
"After working for X years in Japan, I am now looking for a new international challenge in another field..."

Those are, to me, sentences expressing that these 25-35 year old women are not happy being at home all the time, and having a husband they rarely see. It seems they do want to marry/have a relationship but still want to work on their own and have a bit of their own life, and are even willing to leave their country for it.

My very unprofessional conclusion: it seems Japan needs a cultural shift in the working place, or they will end up with overworked (or dead) men and no women.

[Hitch]

Yes, and no... Japanese men still put in 60-70 hour weeks as the norm. They just don't get paid for the overtime. Karoshi still exists, and you hear about it regularly in the news, usually when a family is trying to sue the company. But the problem is, again culturally, that the man feels obligated to put in those hours so his company can prosper. If given a 5-day vacation, he will usually only take 3 days then go back to work because he really wants his company to get ahead and feels a devotion to it that we in the West will never understand. It's his 'duty' to be there for the company.

These were perfectly normal working hours here in the US in the 80's and 90's for anyone who was serious about their career in the 80's and 90's. And overtime is not paid for white-collar workers on salaries; managers, executives and the like. I still work those type of hours, as do most of the people I know that I came up with at the time. (Including guys from GB, GY, and as previously mentioned, Japan. BTW, on your topic: I knew a LOT of Japanese wives during that period. Oddly enough, absolutely NONE of them were as you have described.)

It has always also been common practice for all young lawyers to bill 200 hours a month their first two years, and in any event, not less than 2200 hours/annum. If you've never worked a time-billing system, if you're billing 200, you're working 300. In what is considered a 20-day working month. It's how young lawyers have always gotten ahead, and "made partner."

I fully understand (from interviewing job prospects) that this type of work is considered "nuts" by (a large number of) today's younger people; there's an entirely different work ethic now. Of course...those aren't the people I hire; I look for people who at least are close to my work ethic. I suspect that most of the senior executives who came up as I did don't hire those folks--or at least, don't promote them, either.

{shrug}.

Hitch

[Salgueiros]

I like that people who work for me work tirelessly if it is necessary. But i NEVER accept any work from them that is not paid. If they need to work 300 hours, i pay 300 hours, not a single cent less. Working for free is demeaning, insulting for any worker who has to do it and a shame for any boss who accepts it.

Besides it is unfair. People with a bigger pocket (or richer parents) can afford to work for free, but not if you are a single mother or father with no rich parents living in an expensive city.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I fully understand (from interviewing job prospects) that this type of work is considered "nuts" by (a large number of) today's younger people; there's an entirely different work ethic now. Of course...those aren't the people I hire; I look for people who at least are close to my work ethic. I suspect that most of the senior executives who came up as I did don't hire those folks--or at least, don't promote them, either.

It's a race to the bottom. The one who works the longest for the least pay gets ahead the most, but in the end you have people that work forever for no pay. The employee always loses. That is the reason why there are laws in the Netherlands regarding minimum wages and maximum work weeks and maximum overtime hours per month (and maximum number of weeks of sustained overwork).

Something like karoshi (death because of work) in Japan could not happen here. At least at this point in time, a minimum wage (being €1421 gross, excluding vacation money and government benefits) and a maximum working time per month are guaranteed by law.

LAW

Spoiler:

Normal working time: 40 hours in one week.

Overwork:

- Maximum working time per day: 12 hours.
- Maximum working hours per week: 60 hours.

But, not continuous:

- Maximum working hours per week if overworking for one month: 55
- Maximum working hours per week if overworking for 16 weeks: 48

And, that time has to be paid, often 125% or 150% or even 200% depending on the type of job and number of hours/days/weeks. Even minimum hours of required rest and minutes for breaks is arranged by law.

Also, regarding overwork, you reap what you sow.

I've worked for companies that were on the minute. Need to go early 10 minutes to catch a bus so you can just make it to drop off a package? Not possible. 5 minutes late because you missed the train connection? Huge problem right there. Logged in a minute late from break, or took a shit that took too much time according to the team leader? You're up for a 'discussion.'

Well... nobody ever volunteered for unpaid overwork or helping out on other projects.

My current company is easy-going; as soon as you put in a 40-ish hour workweek (approximately) and make sure the deadlines are met and projects are finished on time, almost everything goes. Need to leave an hour early? No problem. Missed a train connection? So what... get a cup of coffee and start after you finish it.

With that kind of a company I'm much more willing to do overwork if needed.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Salgueiros

I like that people who work for me work tirelessly if it is necessary. But i NEVER accept any work from them that is not paid. If they need to work 300 hours, i pay 300 hours, not a single cent less. Working for free is demeaning, insulting for any worker who has to do it and a shame for any boss who accepts it.

In the US, and some other western countries, there's a very large difference between "workers" who are paid hourly, for blue-collar and lower-level white-collar and pink-collar work, and ARE paid overtime, for every single minute of it, and "management," who are paid salaries, and are NOT paid overtime.

This is not a form of exploitation. Management staff, who supervise others or who hold unique types of positions, earn a significant wage--and they do so on months when they don't have to work that many hours. They have other things, like stock options, bonuses, dividends, etc., that compensate for these types of hours. The implicit and explicit understanding is that a manager, executive, etc., is now part of the upper levels of the company, and works harder to move up, to make the company better and to improve himself. Therefore, when John Doe works on a Saturday to finish a presentation that his team put together, that's due on Monday, that's his job: to get it done. And he's already being paid to do it.

Besides it is unfair. People with a bigger pocket (or richer parents) can afford to work for free, but not if you are a single mother or father with no rich parents living in an expensive city.

I'm not sure where the "work for free" idea came from; I don't expect anyone other than interns to work for free. I don't; I don't expect the people who work for me to do so. I'm unclear on how that came into the discussion.

Hitch

[Salgueiros]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'm not sure where the "work for free" idea came from; I don't expect anyone other than interns to work for free. I don't; I don't expect the people who work for me to do so. I'm unclear on how that came into the discussion.

Hitch

I also do not agree, or accept to have interns working for free.

[ProfCrash]

I am an exempt employee and I work 40 hours a week. If I work over that I get overtime. I work hard but my family is important and I am not going to sacrifice them for work. I look for jobs were that is the norm. I failto see why I should work morethenthat or hours without pay. My husband has a similar job. We are in our early 40's and we are not slackers nor do we lack a work ethic. We value balance

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I would do such things only if it was MY OWN company. Working hard is one thing. Working 50-75% overtime for 'the company' without pay is nuts. IMHO, of course.

Not in your 'opinion,' but in your 'culture.' That's what shapes our opinion. If we look at other cultures and try to evaluate them based on our own cultural norms, they ALL look nuts! Everything from eating, dressing, working, and family life. In America we look at men who wear skirts as crazy, but in Scotland, a kilt doesn't get a second glance. It's all normal when kept within its own cultural boundaries.

......Those are, to me, sentences expressing that these 25-35 year old women are not happy being at home all the time, and having a husband they rarely see. It seems they do want to marry/have a relationship but still want to work on their own and have a bit of their own life, and are even willing to leave their country for it.

Absolutely right. There are plenty of them. They just are not the norm. Even if you see a few hundred people in your advertisements, or a few thousand, there are almost 130,000,000 in Japan. Every society has people who are discontented with their own culture. Hell, every expat living abroad fits that picture, including me! It doesn't mean that most Americans want to live abroad.

My very unprofessional conclusion: it seems Japan needs a cultural shift in the working place, or they will end up with overworked (or dead) men and no women.

In fact, Japan is going through a radical and rapid change in its cultural norms right now. Perhaps too rapid to survive in a positive outcome. A rising crime rate, a declining birth rate, a radical change in the distribution chain in merchandising, an increase in kiretsu holdings, etc., etc., etc. What doesn't seem to be changing though are the attitudes about employment, family, and religion.

Japan is, and has always been, a culture based on Confucian values rather than Christian ones. And THAT is a very big difference. 'Family' comes first in Christian values, but only fourth in Confucian values. This is why Japanese men are more devoted to their employer than their families, and are willing to work themselves to death to see that it prospers. We in the West have no such allegiance except to our families, or in some cases, to our military organizations.

It's a very different culture. We simply can not view it, not understand it, and not really appreciate it if we continue to evaluate it based on a different criteria. It's a case of apples vs oranges.

Besides... who are we to judge?


Stitchawl

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The only thing I can say is: believe it. I've heard more than one very angry conversation of people who thought they were alone enough (on the other side of a flimsy condo wall), on phones in coffee breaks and even in public transport. Imagine hearing something like this:

"So why can't I replace that laptop?"
1. ...
"Next month it's 7 years old and too slow for what I use it for."
2. ....
"In that case, it might be another 30 years!"
3. ....
"WE GOT OVER €20K IN THE BANK YOU.... <strangled noise> !!!"

I think most people would fill in the gaps like this:

1. But you just got it.
2. But it's not broken yet.
3. We can't afford it right now.

(Or I'm hearing the other side. Many people here don't find it a problem to 'discuss' domestic problems in public transport, and not only about money....)

You are right, there are relationships like this. Generally in my experience, one person is a spendthrift and the other was not so much.

I have had a business relationship where my partner wanted to use the tax money we had set aside to buy something he wanted. I was not against the purchase, but against the timing. The taxes were due in two months.
His position was that we could easily save the money in that time. My position was we should save the money and make the purchase. Now this was not the first time he wanted to use the tax money for a non necessity and always it was prefaced with we have the money in the bank, lets buy...

But I don't think this had anything to do with gender. I have seen many relationships break up because one person wanted some security or both were saving for a down payment for a car/house etc. One was happy to save a bit, or even begrudged the other person coffee money, while the other could not seem to be able to stand seeing unspent money while there was beer to be drunk, or a new dress to buy. Either gender can be of either persuasion in my experience. When two people are at opposite ends of the spectrum, it can get ugly.

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Not in your 'opinion,' but in your 'culture.' That's what shapes our opinion. If we look at other cultures and try to evaluate them based on our own cultural norms, they ALL look nuts! Everything from eating, dressing, working, and family life. In America we look at men who wear skirts as crazy, but in Scotland, a kilt doesn't get a second glance. It's all normal when kept within its own cultural boundaries.



Absolutely right. There are plenty of them. They just are not the norm. Even if you see a few hundred people in your advertisements, or a few thousand, there are almost 130,000,000 in Japan. Every society has people who are discontented with their own culture. Hell, every expat living abroad fits that picture, including me! It doesn't mean that most Americans want to live abroad.



In fact, Japan is going through a radical and rapid change in its cultural norms right now. Perhaps too rapid to survive in a positive outcome. A rising crime rate, a declining birth rate, a radical change in the distribution chain in merchandising, an increase in kiretsu holdings, etc., etc., etc. What doesn't seem to be changing though are the attitudes about employment, family, and religion.

Japan is, and has always been, a culture based on Confucian values rather than Christian ones. And THAT is a very big difference. 'Family' comes first in Christian values, but only fourth in Confucian values. This is why Japanese men are more devoted to their employer than their families, and are willing to work themselves to death to see that it prospers. We in the West have no such allegiance except to our families, or in some cases, to our military organizations.

It's a very different culture. We simply can not view it, not understand it, and not really appreciate it if we continue to evaluate it based on a different criteria. It's a case of apples vs oranges.

Besides... who are we to judge?


Stitchawl

I have nothing against your preference for Japanese women, although my first reaction was EEEK! But that was knee jerk.

If you are both happy then whatever way you became happy can't be all bad.

I am pretty confused by the quoted post though. Do you think it is a better thing for a man to put his job before family? Might be a necessity in Japanese culture as with few people changing jobs it is possibly hard to find a new/better/different one. And Japanese employers have traditionally looked after their employees as if they were family, but I have heard that is changing.

Some of my favorite reading material is about Asian cultures, perhaps because I have had several good Asian friends and have been in two personal relationships with Asian men, one in the early 70's when it was considered a bit of a no-no in Canada. And I have worked with 100's in my 11.7 jobs and I like them and they like me AFAIK. But I don't pretend to understand them in many ways.

Still people are all individuals and I find it hard to believe the Japanese are as stereotypical as you seem to imply.

Helen

[meeera]

Back to the venting and rantiness:

Those times when....

You go to set up a brand new Kobo Aura HD, and try and try and it doesn't work, and - it turns out their website says they're doing maintenance!

DOH.

[doubleshuffle]

What does it say on French websites when they do maintenance? Maintenant maintenance?

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

If you are both happy then whatever way you became happy can't be all bad.

That really IS the long and short of it!

I am pretty confused by the quoted post though. Do you think it is a better thing for a man to put his job before family?

It's not a 'better or worse' situation. It's a cultural norm in a Confucian culture. For me personally, having been brought up in the US under Judeo-Christian values, to put job before family is contrary to what we were taught. But if I had been brought up in a country that based its morality and social structure on Confucian values, it would be what I'd expect to see being done by anyone with high moral values. To a Confucian society, putting family ahead of 'the leader' (be that an employer, a government head, or religious leader,) would be seen as immoral. We can only use terms such as 'better' or 'worse,' 'right' or 'wrong' within the context of our own culture. We can't evaluate other cultures based on our expected norms. That's what the Catholic Church did hundreds of years ago, and wiped countless indigenous cultures right off the face of the earth!

Might be a necessity in Japanese culture as with few people changing jobs it is possibly hard to find a new/better/different one.

No, there are always jobs available, and every Spring new hires are recruited by the companies, with massive hires by the larger companies. As of this February, the unemployment rate was 3.6 in Japan. A company such as Matsushita Denki or Sumitomo might hire as many as 300-400 new people at one time every Spring. Japanese people don't change jobs for a very special reason...

As most people show extreme loyalty to their company, 'usually' the only ones who leave are either people who don't fit in with the group, or someone who has been fired for some sort of anti-social behavior such as stealing or fighting. As such, a Japanese person who has held more than 2-3 jobs is looked at as undesirable by other companies. (Obviously this is not the case with occupations that require frequent job changes such as Chefs or contract workers.) People who do a bad job, or just can't get along, are given 'window seats.' They get a desk and no work. They come in, sit at their desk, and do absolutely nothing all day. They are never fired. But everyone knows that they have been given a window seat. Quite often these people will commit suicide rather than leave the company. Confucian values are very different from Western ones...

And Japanese employers have traditionally looked after their employees as if they were family, but I have heard that is changing.

The concept of 'cradle to grave' care by companies is virtually extinct now. However, medical benefits, educational benefits, housing, transportation subsidy, etc, etc., etc., for the whole family still is offered by the larger companies.

And I have worked with 100's in my 11.7 jobs and I like them and they like me AFAIK. But I don't pretend to understand them in many ways.

I lived there most of my adult life, married into the culture, and I really can just barely scratch the surface of understanding the culture. And this despite having studied it in university post-graduate level courses.
Just being around some Japanese people, especially when they are outside of their country and trying to co-exist within a different culture doesn't really give much opportunity for in-depth understanding. It's a very different culture...


Stitchawl

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Timeout! This is the Lounge and not the Politics and Religion section.

Agreed.

Moderator Notice

Any further posts in this thread on the interesting but off-topic subject of cultural attitudes to work, relationships, gender roles and marriage will be deleted without further notice.