Harry Potter - Popular, but never to be a Classic

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Question Mark

And isn't it more enjoyable to discover how great an author is by yourself rather than being told how great an author is...

Don't know. I don't recall ever being told how great I was supposed to believe an author was in school. I only recall being told how influential they were (and how relevant my knowledge of them was going to be for my grade). But then I also don't place a higher "enjoyment quotient" on a new favorite author I happened to discover by dumb luck than I do the new favorite author that I got steered toward by recommendation/suggestion/class either.

Perhaps that's the difference? I didn't make the mistake of thinking I was being given a list of works and authors I was supposed to love and respect. Or whose superiority I was to acknowledge and cling to. I was being given the easiest homework a literate kid could ever imagine: read a book, then let's talk about it. *shrug*

I see little benefit in continuing a conversation where people are clearly talking at odds, though. You have a point when you stated:

Originally Posted by Question Mark

I'm questioning what the purpose of a regular English class is and how best to achieve that.

People who believe the purpose of a "regular" English class should somehow include the task of attempting to instill a general love for reading in as many students as possible are never going to see eye to eye with those who believe the class should be teaching English and introducing them to the foundations of literature; to be built upon (or not) later in life.

It's also a bit pointless for people who don't believe a love for reading actually CAN be instilled at an age when Shakespeare is being assigned in class to discuss literature curricula with those who do.

[ekbell]

Originally Posted by Question Mark

Exactly, which is why I said "in keeping with your thoughts about the ingenuity of modern readers".

I was, in fact, agreeing with you on how modern readers will approach the "Classics" when forced to confront them. They will find an easier alternative.

However, an alternative like The Graphic Canon, as opposed to Coles Notes or some more modern study guide, might actually inspire some modern readers to go to the original source. Not most, but some.

I have met a good number of young students who know much more about Greek mythology than I do. Why? Not because they have been forced to take classes on Greek mythology for their edification because it underlies a lot of our "Classic" Literature. But rather because they got hooked on the Percy Jackson series which began with The Lightning Thief and they got intrigued.

If you want modern kids to read Shakespeare, I would suggest writing a series like Percy Jackson which makes extensive reference to Shakespeare's works. Then let kids discover Shakespeare on their own. They will likely embrace it more if it is something which they have sought out than if it has been mandated upon them.

Would every child actively discover Shakespeare in such a manner? Of course not. Probably not even the majority. But those that did would be more likely to embrace him and then pass on their enthusiasm and their knowledge to their peers. Students tend to be influenced by their peers much more than by the majority of their teachers.

Schools do no favours to Shakespeare, their students or society in general by mandating that his works be read in school. Students need to be able to read, think critically about what they have read and then express their considered opinions about what they have read both in written and oral format. That can be done with any number of texts. There is nothing magic about the "Classics" in this regard.

Offer the "Classics" for those so inclined. Mention them in historical reference to more modern texts when they touch upon a shared theme. But don't force them upon students for purposes of "edification" unless the intent is to turn students off of reading to ensure that they remain sheep, beholden to the sound bites and slogans which plague airwaves and pollute discourse.

My teenage daughter recommends the Manga Classics adaptation of Dracula as a good lead-in to the original.

Her review (as someone who loves the original) is that the Manga Classics adaption has good art and covers all essential plot plots however the pacing suffers by the need to compress the story.

My feeling on the matter is that forcing high school children to read Classic classics is much better then forcing them to read 'relevant' young adult novels (judging by the amount of complaining from my kids) provided that they have the knowledge necessary to understand the book. Plays should be seen as well as read. Ideally children would be able to choose from a list of well-written books with a number of fiction and non-fiction genres for independent reading assignments to increase their chances of discovering the type of books that they like to read.

BTW if the reason for assigning the books is to give the children common background knowledge then the books (or good adaptations) should be assigned as part of their history or other social studies courses where they will learn the context of the works.

[Question Mark]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

But then I also don't place a higher "enjoyment quotient" on a new favorite author I happened to discover by dumb luck than I do the new favorite author that I got steered toward by recommendation/suggestion/class either.

Interesting. I always much preferred discovering new authors by myself to having a book put in my hand and told to read it. I think my mother and grandmother must have known this although I don't ever recall having articulated the thought at the time. In hindsight, I suspect that they strategically left certain books about that I might "discover" them. That's how I first became acquainted with Alan Garner and Graham Greene.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I was being given the easiest homework a literate kid could ever imagine: read a book, then let's talk about it. *shrug*

Fortunately, such homework was not especially challenging for me at the time so much as it was uninteresting. Perhaps you had better discussions.

However, as I now work primarily with struggling readers, I can see the issue from another perspective. For students who already struggle with reading, the task is made even more difficult when the material is in antiquated English. That is what leads me to question what the purpose of an English class should be and how best it might be achieved.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

People who believe the purpose of a "regular" English class should somehow include the task of attempting to instill a general love for reading in as many students as possible are never going to see eye to eye with those who believe the class should be teaching English and introducing them to the foundations of literature; to be built upon (or not) later in life.

That may well be so. Given my experience with struggling and reluctant readers, I tend to see a greater need for developing competent readers than in edifying them with the Classics. I'm not against the Classics, except when they become unnecessary barriers to literacy, as they seem to be for a good number of students.

[Question Mark]

Originally Posted by ekbell

My teenage daughter recommends the Manga Classics adaptation of Dracula as a good lead-in to the original.

I resisted Manga for many years until my wife introduced me to some very good ones. I was quite surprised and a little ashamed that I had not seen them as a valuable genre of reading before then. They can be a very good gateway to more traditional reading, especially for those who have some degree of aphantasia and experience trouble visualizing.

Originally Posted by ekbell

My feeling on the matter is that forcing high school children to read Classic classics is much better then forcing them to read 'relevant' young adult novels (judging by the amount of complaining from my kids)

There are certainly some very bad YA novels out there.

Originally Posted by ekbell

Ideally children would be able to choose from a list of well-written books with a number of fiction and non-fiction genres for independent reading assignments to increase their chances of discovering the type of books that they like to read.

Completely agree.

Originally Posted by ekbell

BTW if the reason for assigning the books is to give the children common background knowledge then the books (or good adaptations) should be assigned as part of their history or other social studies courses where they will learn the context of the works.

I think that would probably make more sense than the current practice. Especially if there were an optional Classics class, for those who wanted to delve into such works more deeply.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Question Mark

Fortunately, such homework was not especially challenging for me at the time so much as it was uninteresting. Perhaps you had better discussions.

Oh, I doubt it. The discussions I remember were usually boring as sin. I only meant to suggest that reading a book at home, and answering a few questions about it in class was by far easier than the workload in any of my other subjects. Whether I liked the book or not.

Originally Posted by Question Mark

Given my experience with struggling and reluctant readers, I tend to see a greater need for developing competent readers than in edifying them with the Classics. I'm not against the Classics, except when they become unnecessary barriers to literacy, as they seem to be for a good number of students.

It is my opinion that questions of literacy and competence should be dealt with long before reading the Classics becomes part of their daily school routine. But if they do slip through the cracks that far, for that long, then surely one-on-one tutoring makes more sense than changing the curriculum for everyone.

[Question Mark]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It is my opinion that questions of literacy and competence should be dealt with long before reading the Classics becomes part of their daily school routine. But if they do slip through the cracks that far, for that long, then surely one-on-one tutoring makes more sense than changing the curriculum for everyone.

You might be surprised at the prevalence of students with learning disabilities. Apparently, in the US, learning and attention issues affect about 1 in 5 children.

https://www.ncld.org/news/state-of-l...s#ch1howcommon

I suspect that the numbers in Canada are fairly similar. I certainly see a good number of such students. And there are many more which somehow manage to scrape by. But scraping by and being made to feel stupid comes at a cost to both the students and society.

Not sure that there are sufficient resources to accommodate that number of students with individual tutoring. So why put up unnecessary barriers to literacy?

I read 5 of Shakespeare's plays in high school. Mandated. Bored the heck out of me. If the intention was to drive me away from Classic literature, they very nearly succeeded. If that is the common ground which schools hope to establish, then they seem to have been very successful.

Fortunately, I discovered other authors outside of school that appealed to me, including Christopher Marlowe. Can't recall how I discovered him. Must have been some reference in something else I was reading at the time which piqued my curiosity. Did a book report on Dr. Faustus which I thoroughly enjoyed. However, had we been mandated to read Dr. Faustus and then thoroughly dissected it in class, I suspect my enjoyment would not have been quite the same.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

We have a Hades lot of poorly educated people who were taught with current teaching methods.

The current teaching methods have nothing to do with the idea of exposure to the classics. You have to teach students the basics (reading, math, basic history) before you move on to the classics. The current system is failing miserably at teaching the basics.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The current teaching methods have nothing to do with the idea of exposure to the classics.

I never said they did. It was just an aside.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I think I might have appreciated Shakespeare (or any other author from well before my own time) more if I had a teacher who put in that much effort.

I guess I went to a pretty good school system, then...that was how we studied most of the books that we did. We would do one book each quarter, from middle school through high school, and each one became part of the curriculum. All grammar lessons were tied to that book. We would talk about the concepts and characters that were in the book, along with what time period the book took place in and the period that the book was written in, and how that affected the writing. We learned about the author of the book, and what their life was like. If there was a movie associated with the book, we would watch it during the last week of the quarter, after we had already had the final exam on the book.

With regards to the Summer reading question, we always had a Summer reading "challenge" where you just kept track of all of the books you read (with parents signing off on it) and the top 5 (or maybe it was 3) from each class got prizes. I participated for a few years, and then just stopped because the teachers never believed my list. The last year I did it (4th grade) they actually called my parents and yelled at them, because some of the books on my list were "too adult" for me to have read. After that, I would write down a couple of books that I thought the teachers would approve of, and call it good. The "prizes" weren't worth the hassle.

Shari

[sakura-panda]

My son (who graduates from high school this year) has had summer reading assignments all through high school. They receive a choice in the spring, choose a book, and turn in a report the first week of school.

My daughter, a freshman this year, did not get a book because her class missed all the ninth grade orientations when the schools closed in March.

When I was in school, we did not have summer reading assignments. The only time was for incoming 12th grade AP English students, and I chose to not take AP English that year, so I never had to do one.

I don't have an opinion on whether or not Harry Potter will be or is a classic; I feel like that is something that is determined much later, when it is no longer considered a contemporary piece of work.

[DuskyRose]

Originally Posted by sakura-panda

I don't have an opinion on whether or not Harry Potter will be or is a classic; I feel like that is something that is determined much later, when it is no longer considered a contemporary piece of work.

I agree. It's too soon to tell. My generation won't be the one to decide. Probably more my grandkid's generation, and they're only 2 and 4 years old. So they haven't had the experience yet.

It's what they decide to read their kids that will be telling.

[thanhan]

I agree. I'm not a fan of Harry Potter, but there are many, many science fiction and fantasy books I love which will never be classics. Most of them will probably not be remembered in 50 years, let alone hundreds

[Luffy]

Originally Posted by thanhan

I agree. I'm not a fan of Harry Potter, but there are many, many science fiction and fantasy books I love which will never be classics. Most of them will probably not be remembered in 50 years, let alone hundreds

200 years later...

pilot : Attention, we're now circling the Robert Galbraith Airport!

[william z]

Originally Posted by leebase

Has there ever been a time when "most" people were avid readers?

Probably not, but is highly likely there are fewer avid readers than there were in the past, simply because there were fewer things to do in the past than there are now. Once you could spend your leisure time reading, listening to the radio or maybe going to a movie. When I was young lots of kids were avid readers of comic books or pulp magazines, now cheap comic books and pulp mags have disappeared. I wonder what percentage of people have library cards now, compared to those in the past?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by william z

Probably not, but is highly likely there are fewer avid readers than there were in the past, simply because there were fewer things to do in the past than there are now. Once you could spend your leisure time reading, listening to the radio or maybe going to a movie. When I was young lots of kids were avid readers of comic books or pulp magazines, now cheap comic books and pulp mags have disappeared. I wonder what percentage of people have library cards now, compared to those in the past?

I would argue that there are a lot more avid readers simply because there are a lot more people. Perhaps the percentage of avid readers are down. I still see kids reading and kids books still seem to sell well. I think that it's more likely that the kids who are big video game types now were more likely those who were running around outside in earlier times.