Bob Dylan wins Nobel Prize for Literature

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, because:

1. He's dead.

I sometimes wonder about your sense of humor.
Do they not joke in the UK about Elvis still being alive? (Living in a trailer park in Texas, or working as an Elvis impersonator, or gone home to his native planet, etc?)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

I sometimes wonder about your sense of humor.
Do they not joke in the UK about Elvis still being alive? (Living in a trailer park in Texas, or working as an Elvis impersonator, or gone home to his native planet, etc?)

Whether he's alive or dead is completely irrelevant, though. He couldn't be awarded the literature prize because he didn't write anything.

[Krazykiwi]

Originally Posted by william z

Krazykiwi - That may be the tradition in Sweden, but I don't think it is the tradition in the USA or most of the world.

That was my actual point, William.

The Nobel Prize for Literature is awarded by a Swedish committee. Not an American one. Not even an international one. They are fulfilling their task as provided by the (Swedish) benefactor of the awards, and as they understand it.

It occurs to me there are plenty of American based literary awards, and sometimes the winners of those are quite mystifying to us foreigners. I don't think I'd go around saying the winners of those are not worthy though.

That said, I think the tradition of blending song and poetry is much stronger in much of the world than you might think. Such a tradition is fairly strong across at least much of Europe and Asia (Japanese Noh, Chinese Opera, for instance, are widely considered dramatic poetry, although they are sung.) The US is, relative to the rest of the world, only a small piece after all, and while globalisation might make it seem like US culture is taking over the world, it isn't that simple.

And sure, a lot of lyrics, particularly of pop music, are not really written in the form of poetry and you would have a hard time claiming them any literary merit. They depend on rhythm and intonation and other things that are only available when they are actually sung. But it's a spectrum, people like Dylan and Vreeswijk are a million miles away from the current top 10.

In the end, to me your argument so seems to be "I don't like it and that's not how we do it here, therefore, it is bad."

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Whether he's alive or dead is completely irrelevant, though.

Yet you listed his being dead as the first item in your list of two, so that's the item I quoted and commented on.

I didn't comment on the part about his not having written his songs because it was a simple fact, and I couldn't think of anything funny to say about it.

[doubleshuffle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_song

[william z]

Originally Posted by Krazykiwi

That was my actual point, William.

The Nobel Prize for Literature is awarded by a Swedish committee. Not an American one. Not even an international one. They are fulfilling their task as provided by the (Swedish) benefactor of the awards, and as they understand it.

It occurs to me there are plenty of American based literary awards, and sometimes the winners of those are quite mystifying to us foreigners. I don't think I'd go around saying the winners of those are not worthy though.

That said, I think the tradition of blending song and poetry is much stronger in much of the world than you might think. Such a tradition is fairly strong across at least much of Europe and Asia (Japanese Noh, Chinese Opera, for instance, are widely considered dramatic poetry, although they are sung.) The US is, relative to the rest of the world, only a small piece after all, and while globalisation might make it seem like US culture is taking over the world, it isn't that simple.

And sure, a lot of lyrics, particularly of pop music, are not really written in the form of poetry and you would have a hard time claiming them any literary merit. They depend on rhythm and intonation and other things that are only available when they are actually sung. But it's a spectrum, people like Dylan and Vreeswijk are a million miles away from the current top 10.

In the end, to me your argument so seems to be "I don't like it and that's not how we do it here, therefore, it is bad."

Oh, come now. There are all kinds of awards for all kinds of things, and many "prestigious" awards for literature and music handed out every year in many countries. The recipients of those awards are selected by a relatively small number of people, they are hardly representative of the majority of people who read books or listen to music. Some of them are deserved and some are probably not. There is no end of good authors, singers and songwriters who probably deserved an award and were never even considered for one.

There are no awards for authors whose books sold the most copies, or for singers who sold the most records because the people who award prizes deem anything that appeals to "the masses" apparently not worthy of consideration, too lowbrow.

Recently the country of Venezuela created something called "Chavez Peace Prize" and gave it to Vladimar Putin. Some years ago The People's Republic of China, feeling snubbed by the Nobel Prize Committee established "The Confusious Prizes" that nobody outside of China pays any attention to.

"That said, I think the tradition of blending song and poetry is much stronger in much of the world than you might think. Such a tradition is fairly strong across at least much of Europe and Asia (Japanese Noh, Chinese Opera, for instance, are widely considered dramatic poetry, although they are sung.)"

You forgot grand opera, operettas, musical plays and Hollywood "musicals". Japanese Noh are plays combining dance, drama, music, and poetry and are only semi-popular in Japan and Chinese Opera is only popular in China. None of those things are poetry as such. People watch and listen to them, they do not read them. Songs are a combination of words (which may or may not be poetry) and music and are meant to be sung and listened to. Poetry is words meant to be read.

"... people like Dylan and Vreeswijk are a million miles away from the current top 10." And probably even further away than that to most readers of literature.

[Krazykiwi]

Originally Posted by william z

You forgot grand opera, operettas, musical plays and Hollywood "musicals".

I didn't forget them, well at least western opera and operetta, as they are more heavily based in musical traditions with the lyrics are generally written after and according to the music. That said, lyric poetry can and always has been later set to music as operatic librettos.

Originally Posted by william z

Japanese Noh are plays combining dance, drama, music, and poetry and are only semi-popular in Japan and Chinese Opera is only popular in China. None of those things are poetry as such. People watch and listen to them, they do not read them. Songs are a combination of words (which may or may not be poetry) and music and are meant to be sung and listened to.

Heh. "Only popular in China?" You are aware exactly how big that audience is? I guess it doesn't count, since it doesn't agree with you.

Originally Posted by william z

Poetry is words meant to be read

That is simply not true William. Five minutes on virtually any search engine would tell you that the definitions of the literary terms "Dramatic Poetry" and "Lyric Poetry" have always included either musical accompaniment or flat out singing.

Originally Posted by william z

"... people like Dylan and Vreeswijk are a million miles away from the current top 10." And probably even further away than that to most readers of literature.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to admit that there are other opinions on where the line is between lyrics and poetry, or that there even is a line. You seem to be conflating "American readers of literature (particularly those named William)" with "All readers of literature" when that's simply not the case. Which again, is my whole point. There are a lot of diverging opinions and some of the people who hold those differing opinions happen to be members of the Svenska Akadamien. And it's their decision, not yours, what is "Literature" according to the terms of Nobel's will.

But I'm done arguing, you've made your opinion quite clear.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by william z

"... people like Dylan and Vreeswijk are a million miles away from the current top 10." And probably even further away than that to most readers of literature.

You know most readers?

Answering a couple of other posts of yours.
How do you know only Dylan fans talk about his music? I would like some proof of this.

Also you said something about how the USA thinks. Did you ask everyone in the USA or are you just referring to the circle of people that you talk to?

I would like to ask about the statement you have made twice but I refuse to violate MR rules by asking about politics outside of the proper forum for that topic.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I read song lyrics. I have the sound turned off on my computer and often read lyrics before even listening to a song. I said earlier that the best songs have a story in them. They are literature for me. Mark Knopfler has written some great stories that he happens to set to music. Prairie Wedding is a fabulous Western/romance. He also wrote a mafia type song "Don't Crash the Ambulance." He has a crime song in "Postcard from Paraguay." Really great mystery/detective story: "On Every Street." Love the line: Somewhere your fingerprints remain concrete. But the whole "song" is a great story.

Yep, this is why I listen to music, for the story, for the poetry, for the emotion.

Not for the music, but that doesn't hurt either.

The Cowboy Junkies, Townes Van Zandt, Van Morrison, Paul Simon, Gregory Alan Isakov, David Crosby/CSN&Y, Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Counting Crows/Adam Duritz....

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Yep, this is why I listen to music, for the story, for the poetry, for the emotion.

Not for the music, but that doesn't hurt either.

The Cowboy Junkies, Townes Van Zandt, Van Morrison, Paul Simon, Gregory Alan Isakov, David Crosby/CSN&Y, Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Counting Crows/Adam Duritz....

[kennyc]

Yep he was a classic storyteller.

[AnemicOak]

Love Gordon Lightfoot, I grew up listening to him as my folks liked him a lot. I can't count the number of times I've heard "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on trips we made to the Lake Superior shore.

[arjaybe]

Okay, but if I hear the Railroad Trilogy again, I can't guarantee the safety of any breakable objects within reach.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Okay, but if I hear the Railroad Trilogy again, I can't guarantee the safety of any breakable objects within reach.

I heard knowing that song was required for Canadian citizenship.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Yep he was a classic storyteller.

My favorite folk singer. I like him much better than Dylan.