Secondhand ebooks?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

We don't i we just take them or distribute them without the owners permission. Why do we need a contract to rent a car. We could sahre it by hotwiring it and driving it for a day and bring it back.

A contract is just a standardized agreement. a lot of implicit agreements can result in unpleasant legal consequences for those who break them, such as shoplifting, dine and dash etc.

Thunderbolts will descend on my head I am sure, but if you want to share that ebook and expect approval do it the right way. Lend them your reader, sign them up to your account, find them a copy at their library. If you don't trust them with your reader or account and can't be bothered to look up the book for them, then recommend the book and they can get their own copy. The world will probably not end for them or for you.

Helen

We share books all the time, without contracts, without permission of the author or publisher or bookseller, as long as they're physical books. The question--obviously--is why do we need a contract and a laundry list of dos and don'ts to share a book when it's in digital form.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

This is probably a good point. My mom is on a long vacation. I sent her with my Kobo so she finally got to read <I>The Thousand Autumns of Jacob due Zoet</I> and loved it. I had bought a book club read, <We Need to Talk Abound Kevin</I>, :?P but she got to read it on the device while I read it with this app on my tablet. I have gotten used hardcovers from Amazon marketplace of books I really love/want to share but bought in eBook. I do also buy with and read on the Kindle app.

Good for you. I actually think this is legal as it is registered to both devices.
Kudos!

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

We share books all the time, without contracts, without permission of the author or publisher or bookseller, as long as they're physical books. The question--obviously--is why do we need a contract and a laundry list of dos and don'ts to share a book when it's in digital form.

Mild Thunderbolt #1

We don't need contracts, the authors/publishers do.

I am pretty sure they would be at the most mildly displeased if you share your ebook with one person at a time, and that person returned it to you and deleted all copies without sharing it with anyone else. Or shared it with someone else with equal integrity, so that only one copy was at all possible to be read at a time. Not saying that any number of people cannot read that one copy as long as their is only one copy, just like in paper books.

If this is the case, and you are totally sure it is the case with all lendees, then my personal blessings upon you.

Helen

[eskimo49]

Amazon does allow people in some countries to lend an e-book to another person, but while the e-book is on loan, the original purchaser can't access it at all. Think it is only in US that it can be loaned, and for fixed time of 14 days. I also believe that an e-book cn only be given on loan once.

Kindle authors can also place their book in Kindle Library where books can also be put on loan.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I am pretty sure they would be at the most mildly displeased if you share your ebook with one person at a time, and that person returned it to you and deleted all copies without sharing it with anyone else. Or shared it with someone else with equal integrity, so that only one copy was at all possible to be read at a time. Not saying that any number of people cannot read that one copy as long as their is only one copy, just like in paper books.

One of the issues with selling "secondhand" eBooks or MP3 files is that digital data doesn't degrade with time, as a physical product does.

If you go to Amazon (which I choose as an example simply because they sell both new and 2nd-hand books) and you see a new book for £5, and half a dozen 2nd-hand copies of the same book for prices ranging from perhaps £1 to £4, you're still quite likely to buy the new copy at £5 because there's a significant physical difference between a new book and a 2nd-hand one, and perhaps because you think Amazon are a more reliable seller than an unknown 3rd party.

That's not the case with an eBook. You'd probably always buy the 2nd-hand eBook for £1 rather than the new one for £5, because they are exactly the same, and you get an instant download in both cases. Offering 2nd-hand eBooks would completely destroy the market for new books, in a way that selling 2nd-hand paper books does not. A publisher could NEVER sell a new eBook if 2nd-hand copies of that same book were available, because there would be absolutely no reason to buy the new copy. Allowing the resale of eBooks could very well result in the destruction of the eBook industry.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

One of the issues with selling "secondhand" eBooks or MP3 files is that digital data doesn't degrade with time, as a physical product does.

Well, they kind of do degrade. An MP3 file degrade in the way that the default sample rate will increase. And a book can degreade if the number of readers that can read the format decreases. And so on.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You'd probably always buy the 2nd-hand eBook for £1 rather than the new one for £5, because they are exactly the same, and you get an instant download in both cases. Offering 2nd-hand eBooks would completely destroy the market for new books, in a way that selling 2nd-hand paper books does not.

Publishers, and more importantly mid-list authors, are finding out that used pbook availability is severely damaging their ability to sell new books. They get a few days of sales when a book is released, followed by a steep decline as used copies hit Amazon--and are sold on the same page as new books. They're finding out how many of their readers don't actually care about new-hardcover-in-mint-condition, and just wanted access to the text.

This does not counter your point, which is pretty much correct. But it's not just perfect, non-degradable copies that compete with new ones at full price--and publishers know this, or they'd release the paperback at the same time they release the hardcover.

As both copies and used-book transfer get easier, publishers (including indie authors) will need to come up with new business models, because the main profitability of the current one is based on a scarcity that no longer works the way it used to. If getting a half-list-price copy is as easy as putting the title in a search engine, whether that copy is digital or print, selling full-price copies is going to be a lot more difficult.

Sure, some people want perfect-condition hardcovers as collectible items. But those people aren't nearly as numerous as publishers always assumed; people who just like to read are a lot more common. When getting new reading material was most convenient as "full price hardcover new releases," they did that. Now that it's just as convenient to get a new-release hardcover a week later at half the price... they're switching. And the publishers make no royalties at all from those sales.

[Kumabjorn]

I have been away from this thread for a while and there are too many posts to keep up, so if this has already been discussed, please disregard.

This post is limited to Amazon and their eco-system. The reason being that they have better control over distribution than any other eRetailer. This also precludes Calibre or any Cloud storage outside Amazon.

We know that BPH wants to sell eBooks for somewhere between $12.50 and $15.00, at least that is the price range I find for most novels I have purchased. Back list items being in the $8 to $10 range.

Let's assume that Amazon and BPH, due to the DOJ decision needs to come to a new understanding. An agreement that would be along this line.

BPH gets to set their price for 360 days. During that time they will have to accept that consumers may resell their purchases on Amazon for 70% of the price set by BPH. Amazon assures that said eBook will no longer be available on any of the devices registered at that consumer's account. The consumer gets 60% of the resale, Amazon takes 20% and the residual is a split between the BPH and the author (contract agreement).

This should lead to more purchases of BPH books, avid readers get a chance to redeem some of their purchase costs, and athors get something for resale of "used" eBooks.

A win-win-win? If not, why?

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

Amazon doesn't write laws, but they do write contracts though, which is what you're entering into and can be binding on you.

There's some interesting case law in the EU on software licenses recently in this area, but your mileage on that may vary depending on your jurisdiction. In Canada, for example, courts have generally accepted website EULAs as binding on site users. In the UK, there have been very few cases applicable to EULAs (obviously cases that deal with contracts generally would apply).

If they are contracts, shouldn't you have the opportunity to negotiate them?

Basically, you can accept or decline, but what if you are willing to accept 98% of the content in the contract bt would like to negotiate about the other 2%? What can you do in a situation like that?

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

As both copies and used-book transfer get easier, publishers (including indie authors) will need to come up with new business models, because the main profitability of the current one is based on a scarcity that no longer works the way it used to. If getting a half-list-price copy is as easy as putting the title in a search engine, whether that copy is digital or print, selling full-price copies is going to be a lot more difficult.

The price might need to fluctuate, but that would lead to other problems. I still think the new business model is a donation based system that allows for ease of access to all books, well maybe not all but most. Some will continue to restrict their texts behind a paywall.

Thinking in terms of buying and selling might lead you to conclude in such things as the "destruction of the ebook industry" But perhaps ebooks do not need an industry, perhaps ebooks are merely an extension of the network, wanting to be shared.

If ebooks are not sold, they cannot be resold.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

If ebooks are not sold, they cannot be resold.

That's the whole point. If all you're purchasing is a license to read the material, it's not really yours to do with as you wish. It's like someone selling you a TV -- you own the TV, you don't own the shows you watch on it.

You own the license, you don't own the content. That belongs to the copyright holder. And in most cases, the copyright holder has only given you permission to read the book, not rebroadcast it to the rest of the world.

It's just like watching a Pay-Per-View event on TV. Nobody cares if you invite your friends and family over to watch. But when you record the content, then put it on a torrent site for everyone else to watch, you've broken the system and people get angry. Then the next event costs $250, versus the $30 you first paid. Why? Because the content creator wants to make a living.

[Sydney's Mom]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

If they are contracts, shouldn't you have the opportunity to negotiate them?

Basically, you can accept or decline, but what if you are willing to accept 98% of the content in the contract bt would like to negotiate about the other 2%? What can you do in a situation like that?

Absolutely nothing. You either accept it or you don't play. Just like your mortgage. Assuming the amount and rate is correct, you either accept the rest or continue to rent.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by Sydney's Mom

Absolutely nothing. You either accept it or you don't play. Just like your mortgage. Assuming the amount and rate is correct, you either accept the rest or continue to rent.

I renogotiate my mortgage all the time.

[Cpl Punishment]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Treating an ebook like you would a paper book is lacking in integrity?

Perhaps the publishers and retailers are lacking in integrity by imposing ridiculous restrictions on their goods.

That YOU agreed to....Yes, lacking integrity...

[HansTWN]

It is true, of course, that simply allowing resale of ebooks would totally destroy the market for new ebooks since the an ebook is always "new". Especially if Amazon organized a "second hand ebook market". I never buy second hand items, but I obviously wouldn't think twice about buying a second hand ebook. A possible solution would be to allow resale only after an extended period, let us say two years or so? Though handing an ebook to a friend (if it can be made sure that only one copy remains in existence) should be fine.