e-Book Requests and Begging (Public Domain Books Only!)

[vivaldirules]

I happened to notice that none of the books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, author of the phenomenally popular Little House on the Prairie and related books, do not appear here. According to Wikipedia, she died February 10, 1957 which means that her books should now be in the public domain in Canada, correct? And yet I don't see them on the Project Gutenberg Canada site either. Would a moderator please clarify whether it would be legal to post them here?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I happened to notice that none of the books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, author of the phenomenally popular Little House on the Prairie and related books, do not appear here. According to Wikipedia, she died February 10, 1957 which means that her books should now be in the public domain in Canada, correct? And yet I don't see them on the Project Gutenberg Canada site either. Would a moderator please clarify whether it would be legal to post them here?

I believe that this is correct. If she died in 1957 then the Canadian rules say it is in the Public Domain in 2007.

Dale

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I happened to notice that none of the books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, author of the phenomenally popular Little House on the Prairie and related books, do not appear here. According to Wikipedia, she died February 10, 1957 which means that her books should now be in the public domain in Canada, correct? And yet I don't see them on the Project Gutenberg Canada site either. Would a moderator please clarify whether it would be legal to post them here?

I looked for them but couldn't find any free versions available. (Several are available to purchase as ebooks.)

The American copyright holder has taken great care to renew all the USA copyrights. However, there's nothing to stop a Canadian site from hosting them, as far as I can see.

[vivaldirules]

Whoa! This seems rather amazing to me. And a bit scary, too. For example, I also see that A. A. Milne died January 31, 1956 so it would seem to me that the text of his books Winnie the Pooh and The House at Pooh Corner are in the public domain in Canada. And we realize, don't we, that we're now talking about Disney (think litigation and $$$) and a major force behind the current copyright laws in the U.S.? At least one complication is that the books were originally published with illustrations by E. H. Shepard who died in 1974. So his illustrations should still be protected in Canada and therefore maybe the books as a whole are thus protected? I don't know. I'm just pointing out that I had not realized until now the gravity of this.

So the bottom line question is, would Alexander and the moderators approve if someone from Canada posted ebooks containing the unillustrated texts by A. A. Milne? And, have no fear, I'm not going near these with a ten foot pole (or even the North Pole).

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Whoa! This seems rather amazing to me. And a bit scary, too. For example, I also see that A. A. Milne died January 31, 1956 so it would seem to me that the text of his books Winnie the Pooh and The House at Pooh Corner are in the public domain in Canada. And we realize, don't we, that we're now talking about Disney (think litigation and $$$) and a major force behind the current copyright laws in the U.S.? At least one complication is that the books were originally published with illustrations by E. H. Shepard who died in 1974. So his illustrations should still be protected in Canada and therefore maybe the books as a whole are thus protected? I don't know. I'm just pointing out that I had not realized until now the gravity of this.

So the bottom line question is, would Alexander and the moderators approve if someone from Canada posted ebooks containing the unillustrated texts by A. A. Milne? And, have no fear, I'm not going near these with a ten foot pole (or even the North Pole).

well, correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems to me that disney or no disney, if Milne died in 1956 then his texts are definitely in the PD in Canada and therefore there should be no problem at all with posting them on our canadian servers. the illustrations are probably a different story so i suppose it's best to avoid them for the moment. canadian members, who's interested ?

[HarryT]

That is correct, but to be legal the text must be scanned from a Canadian edition of the book by someone in Canada.

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That is correct, but to be legal the text must be scanned from a Canadian edition of the book by someone in Canada.

Thank you for that important information, Harry. I assume this will be true of other books, as well. If there were no Canadian editions printed, then I assume it would remain illegal to post text from any scanned edition. Is that correct?

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That is correct, but to be legal the text must be scanned from a Canadian edition of the book by someone in Canada.

why would that be true ? copyright is not based on date of publication (or place of publication, for that matter) in this case but on the author's lifetime, why should the original location of the publication enter into the equation ?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

why would that be true ? copyright is not based on date of publication (or place of publication, for that matter) in this case but on the author's lifetime, why should the original location of the publication enter into the equation ?

Different countries have different copyright laws. If a book is published in a country, it is clearly subject to that country's copyright laws. An import gets into gray areas, subject to both local law and inter-country treaties...

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Different countries have different copyright laws. If a book is published in a country, it is clearly subject to that country's copyright laws. An import gets into gray areas, subject to both local law and inter-country treaties...

well, that still makes no sense to me as i would expect the location of the conversion / publication to be more relevant, but then almost none of copyright law in its current form makes sense...

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Thank you for that important information, Harry. I assume this will be true of other books, as well. If there were no Canadian editions printed, then I assume it would remain illegal to post text from any scanned edition. Is that correct?

Well... if it's public domain in Canada, it means a Canadian can publish derived works with Winnie the Pooh and other characters. If the derived work happens to have exactly the same words as the original, as long as the Canadian in question does not claim it to be an original work of his, what's the problem? Publishing scans of a non-Canadian edition may be illegal, but publishing the text, the words?

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Well... if it's public domain in Canada, it means a Canadian can publish derived works with Winnie the Pooh and other characters. If the derived work happens to have exactly the same words as the original, as long as the Canadian in question does not claim it to be an original work of his, what's the problem? Publishing scans of a non-Canadian edition may be illegal, but publishing the text, the words?

yes, exactly ! i don't see how it would even necessarily be possible to establish from which edition a *text* was taken, if it's not in the form of image scans. the text itself should be in the public domain regardless of the origin of the source it is copied from.

[Greg Anos]

The problem is that this is a legal gray area. There is no case law, either way, in Canada (that I am aware of). If someone has a few million to spare, then it would be easy to get this settled. Post Gone With The Wind on a Canadian server and let Margerat Mitchell's estate sue you in Canadian court (they will!). That's why it's not on MR, even though it is in Public Domain in Canada. No one has the money to fight it out in court, not the lack of courage...

Now apparently Austrailia has courts that look more askance of US copyright bullying, as Gone With the Wind is also PD in Austrailia and is posted on PG Austrailia, and has been for years. On the other hand, the US made Austrailia become a life + 70 country as part of a Free trade pact in 2006, ending the life + 50 for works starting with author's death in 1955...

[zelda_pinwheel]

it doesn't seem very grey to me, if Gone With the Wind was posted to PG australia before the US bullied them into extending copyright term, although it is still under copyright in the US... that seems on the contrary to explicitly resolve the question. probably there are plenty more examples.

besides which, AA Milne, if i am not mistaken, was a british author, not american. so i don't see what the US should have to say about his texts, frankly.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

it doesn't seem very grey to me, if Gone With the Wind was posted to PG australia before the US bullied them into extending copyright term, although it is still under copyright in the US... that seems on the contrary to explicitly resolve the question. probably there are plenty more examples.

besides which, AA Milne, if i am not mistaken, was a british author, not american. so i don't see what the US should have to say about his texts, frankly.

It does, in Austrailia. But now Austrailia is a life + 70 country, so the books mention by VR are not going into the public domain in Austrailia for another 19-20 years. (Existing P.D. works were grandfathered. Therefore, the Mitchell estate can't sue, because the copyright loss was explicitly agreed to by treaty.)

In Canada, which is the last major life + 50 country, the legal threat is not that the works aren't PD in Canada, but there is nothing to stop, say Ralph Sir Edward - Texan, from downloading a copy of the work from Canada that is still in copyright in America (and by US edition, also under US copyright law, as well, even if it is originally from another country.) Whether a copyright holder in the US has the right to sue a Canadian provider, located in Canada, for providing electronic copies of works in the Canadian Public Domain, that can (and will) be downloaded in other countries where they are illegal, is not settled, as nobody has been willing to spend the money to find out. So US copyright owners can (and have) used the threat of litigation to stop the posting of some titles that are legal in Canada.