Do you consider it to be unethical...

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

This thread has finally reached the point of diminishing returns.

Neither side has *any* hope of convincing the other.

I'm not trying to convince the other side.

I'm not even really trying to convince the lurkers who wander into the thread. Or at least, not directly trying to convince them I'm right. I'm mostly hoping to convince them that copyright is complicated, that the laws are unclear because they weren't designed for digital content, that some of the legal situations make no sense, and that there's no simple answer of "just read the laws and then you'll know what's okay."

While I'd (of course) like it if everyone agreed with *my* interpretation of the laws & court rulings, I'm much more invested in more people becoming aware that copyright laws desperately need reform, and need to be re-designed, possibly from the ground up, to deal with the realities of instant free copies across the globe.

I'd like that reform to acknowledge the difference between "copies for commercial gain" and "copies without renumeration." And the difference between "direct copies" and "conversion copies" and "derivative use of copyrighted material." But mostly, I'd like people to be more aware that this is important--that these are growing issues that won't go away if the general public just says "bah, too complicated for me!"

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I'm not trying to convince the other side.

I'm not even really trying to convince the lurkers who wander into the thread. Or at least, not directly trying to convince them I'm right. I'm mostly hoping to convince them that copyright is complicated, that the laws are unclear because they weren't designed for digital content, that some of the legal situations make no sense, and that there's no simple answer of "just read the laws and then you'll know what's okay."

While I'd (of course) like it if everyone agreed with *my* interpretation of the laws & court rulings, I'm much more invested in more people becoming aware that copyright laws desperately need reform, and need to be re-designed, possibly from the ground up, to deal with the realities of instant free copies across the globe.

I'd like that reform to acknowledge the difference between "copies for commercial gain" and "copies without renumeration." And the difference between "direct copies" and "conversion copies" and "derivative use of copyrighted material." But mostly, I'd like people to be more aware that this is important--that these are growing issues that won't go away if the general public just says "bah, too complicated for me!"

You are so right about copyright reform being needed. The copyright laws have become horribly convoluted from influence by lobbying from big money concerns (can anyone say "Disney?") and from falling behind technology.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by harryE123

I disagree, this is a heated issue, and pushing it under the rug by locking the thread won't solve it.

The thread will not "solve" anything - it's made up of comments from a tiny sub-group of a small group of self-selecting individuals, mostly with no qualifications, and certainly with no power, to change anything.

But that's not really the point - it's a discussion thread, where people discuss stuff regardless of their position or ability to change anything. The difficulty is that sometimes such discussions descend into vitriol and slagging off - which itself can be fun for a bit, (at least I assume it can otherwise people wouldn't do it and other people wouldn't watch it from the sidelines), but then the thread gets closed and nobody feels particularly good. So maybe we should just cut out the slagging off and contribute what we can - or shut up.

[harryE123]

Originally Posted by TGS

The thread will not "solve" anything - it's made up of comments from a tiny sub-group of a small group of self-selecting individuals, mostly with no qualifications, and certainly with no power, to change anything.

But that's not really the point - it's a discussion thread, where people discuss stuff regardless of their position or ability to change anything. The difficulty is that sometimes such discussions descend into vitriol and slagging off - which itself can be fun for a bit, (at least I assume it can otherwise people wouldn't do it and other people wouldn't watch it from the sidelines), but then the thread gets closed and nobody feels particularly good. So maybe we should just cut out the slagging off and contribute what we can - or shut up.

Au contraire, issues are solved with discourse (even if the level stoops occasionally). Position or ability to actually implement changes here and now isn't a problem. The problem is the lack of awareness of differing viewpoints and needs. Discussion makes for informed parties, informed customers who may develop a better idea of what they can or cannot (or should or should not) demand and what is ethical for them to do.

[GhostHawk]

Well Elfwreck I for one appreciate your time sir.

Your posts are much more well thought out and logical than mine would be.
If it had been me that Dinglefritz had been slamming I'd of lost my cool.

Hats off to you Elfwreck and Salute!

[TGS]

Originally Posted by harryE123

Au contraire, issues are solved with discourse (even if the level stoops occasionally). Position or ability to actually implement changes here and now isn't a problem. The problem is the lack of awareness of differing viewpoints and needs. Discussion makes for informed parties, informed customers who may develop a better idea of what they can or cannot (or should or should not) demand and what is ethical for them to do.

Oh, I don't disagree - issues often are solved with and through discourse, (though not always, sometimes "solutions" get implemented without much discourse), from which it does not follow that any particular discourse is able to contribute to a solution.And this particular discourse isn't happening because it is getting us towards a solution, it's happening because people like to discuss, give their opinion, argue, sound off, restate their position, and so on. All of which is fine, and not something that should lead to anyone slagging anyone else off about, is all I meant.

I'm not sure what problem is "lack of awareness" - most people who concern themselves with the implications of copyright and how it cashes out in various contexts are aware of the issues. Most of the world doesn't care because there is no reason why they should.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by harryE123

open the poll again, I am sure it will converge towards 80% for the no's.

That's plausible, but consider how the poll questions are written. Putting an out of print book on your Kindle, if unethical, would be an exceedingly minimal violation. But in real life, do books that are out of print really exist on the darknet?

I've been wanting to read, and will have to read a paper copy of, the following book written by Gordon Haight, who died in 1985:

George Eliot, A Biography (1968)

http://oneminutebookreviews.wordpres...low-this-post/

My personal reading pattern is to get interested in a subject and then read about it. Because of this, I don't read many current books. And unless I am missing something, the darknet consists of recent books whose authors and editors do deserve compensation, rather than books by authors such as the late Dr. Haight.

Another subject I have been reading up on a bit lately is the history of the Latter Day Saints church. And I have not found any out of print, but still in copyright, Mormon history books which are available as illicit downloads. Am I missing something?

[guyanonymous]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

My personal reading pattern is to get interested in a subject and then read about it. Because of this, I don't read many current books. And unless I am missing something, the darknet consists of recent books whose authors and editors do deserve compensation, rather than books by authors such as the late Dr. Haight.

Another subject I have been reading up on a bit lately is the history of the Latter Day Saints church. And I have not found any out of print, but still in copyright, Mormon history books which are available as illicit downloads. Am I missing something?

Popularity. I could be wrong, but the two books you describe don't sound mainstream, of wide-interest, or one's likely to be found on more than a fraction of a percent of reader's bookshelves.

The books making it onto the darknet (I suspect) are making it there

a) because they're mainstream now

b) were mainstream/important enough that people still read them now or recognize the author's name,

c) were/are popular/significant in their genre (e.g., science fiction and mystery are fairly well represented by historical texts right up to the present),

d) are/were controversial

e) someone just made the e-text for their own specific reasons/interest and it found it's way from there.

f) are US (or maybe UK) published (a numbers game here).

(in case it interests you, the other day, I did find that the Mormon Missionary Diaries are mostly scanned (very nicely) and available to peruse online for free at http://www.lib.byu.edu/dlib/mmd/ )

p.s., I just took 2 minutes to do a search of one area of the darknet and, while I don't find reference to Gordon Haight, there are a ton of George Eliot texts.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by guyanonymous

p.s., I just took 2 minutes to do a search of one area of the darknet and, while I don't find reference to Gordon Haight, there are a ton of George Eliot texts.

Bugger, it wasn't you who made *********.com go down was it?

[guyanonymous]

hahaha...this was a .com free search... (irc)

[mrkarl]

I don't think it's unethical at all. If it's the only bridge that exists........

Is it ethical then for someone else besides the author and publisher to profit by selling an out of print copy for a hundred dollars when they only paid five originally?

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by guyanonymous

p.s., I just took 2 minutes to do a search of one area of the darknet and, while I don't find reference to Gordon Haight, there are a ton of George Eliot texts.

Everything published before 1923 is in the public domain in all countries. Eliot died in 1880, so I wouldn't call anything she wrote part of the darknet.

I do indeed expect to read many nineteenth century English novels on my Kindle 3.

[guyanonymous]

TIL Today....George Eliot was a woman and all her books are old.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

My personal reading pattern is to get interested in a subject and then read about it.

Mine, too. My wife refers to this as my "binge reading." I have about a 6 month attention span.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Another subject I have been reading up on a bit lately is the history of the Latter Day Saints church. And I have not found any out of print, but still in copyright, Mormon history books which are available as illicit downloads. Am I missing something?

Spotted
Predicting the Past: The Utah War's Twenty-First Century Future By William P. MacKinnon and
People of Paradox: A History of Mormon Culture By Terryl L. Givens somewhere very dark and very, very dangerous the other day