Microsoft and the Xbox - Page 15

dmaul1114 · 11-18-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Xbox live is a pay for service. There is nothing for the Xbox itself restricting modification. The EULA in question is strictly that for Xbox Live.

Yep, and you're buying a license to use the service so they can put restriction on it for sure. It's their network, they can set their own rules for its usage.

Their is the free silver tier where you can just buy stuff, download demos etc.--do people get banned from that as well? Or just get blocked from having a gold account?

But in any case, you agree to the same EULA when signing up for X-box live regardless of whether you choose the free Silver service or the paid Gold service. So, again, it's their network and they can choose who they let use it.

Hellmark · 11-18-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Heh - I really don't mind it being pointed out, but I'll probably just do it again

(The spellchecker I used with Firefox 2 dosn't have a UK-English dictionary for 3.x, if you have a recomendation for one...)

Firefox 3 has a built in spell checker, with support for en-gb. Go to Preferences, and under the Content tab will be a button for Languages. Click that, and select the UK dictionary (if it isn't already installed, select it from the drop down.)

DawnFalcon · 11-18-2009, 01:17 PM

double post

DawnFalcon · 11-18-2009, 01:23 PM

dmaul - Again, not really accurate.

There is a substantial free portion of the service, it is advertised as a feature of the 360 rather than a separate service, and we've just covered the fact that you cannot set your own rules in disregard of the law.

The black and white moralistic stance you take here is rather amusing given the actions of many other people on this board, and it's not like I am arguing against Microsoft taking action, just the specifics of what they've chosen to do, because of the "toxic" side effects.

Hellmark - And it doesn't work for forum edit-boxes, at least with the greasemonkey script I use. That's why I resorted to a third party one in the first place.

Sonist · 11-18-2009, 02:57 PM

Silly me (dumb consumer) looks at the XBOX 360 info on the XBOX site, and what do I see? Ah, yes, the Arcade and the Elite come with Silver Membership to Live! Wow, I buy the box, and I get Live as part of the purchase!

Then I go to the store, and see the ugly, noisy thing. So I debate between it and the PS3. But the geek in the store tells me, "Dude, the good thing about the XBOX is, that you can deck it out, put lights in the case, mod the chip so you can use back ups of games, and if you play with your buds at their place, you can back up the game and continue it over at your place later! And yeah, they say it voids your warranty, but these things don't break, dude, so who cares. Forget the PS3, buy the XBOX....."

So I buy it. I get the blue neon lights inside, do the chip mod, I am happy moving saved games around, I upgrade Live so I can stream 30 Rock from Netflix.

Then, one morning I wake up, and can't get on Netflix. Can't play games on line. I call MS and ask them "where is my Hulu?" and they tell me something about a EULA....

Of course, this would NEVER happen to the goody two-shoes, who know the difference between EULA and HULU, and who diligently read every word of every EULA. And who's unfailing virtuousness was recently reaffirmed by Microsoft, giving them the opportunity to gleefully preach to the sinners about it, in post after post.

For the record, I do not own an XBOX - I returned an Elite within 3 days, because I found it too ugly, too noisy, and too hot-running.

deltop · 11-18-2009, 03:35 PM

Personally I think that if your the kind of person who listens to someone who calls them "dude" and who also shows them how to use "backups" aka pirated copies then you deserve to get banned

But the fact is if your even slightly competent (which you have to be to change the firmware on your 360's drive) your going to be well aware of the consequences.

The reason you haven't seen anyone sue ms is simple. The only people using these hacks are pirates (I know I was one of them). Only a tiny minority of people are getting banned without cause if any. Not enough to cause ms any real problems.

Hellmark · 11-18-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

dmaul - Again, not really accurate.

There is a substantial free portion of the service, it is advertised as a feature of the 360 rather than a separate service, and we've just covered the fact that you cannot set your own rules in disregard of the law.

Hellmark - And it doesn't work for forum edit-boxes, at least with the greasemonkey script I use. That's why I resorted to a third party one in the first place.

As a 360 owner, I have to say that XBL Silver is not substantial. You can buy some games and addons (but not all), and have others see your gamerpoints online. To buy all games, use netflix, play games online, etc you need Gold, which is NOT free.

Hmm, I've never had a problem with spell check not working on forums.

Sonist · 11-18-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltop

Personally I think that if your the kind of person who listens to someone who calls them "dude" ....

LOL, and who do you think is the most avid part of the XBOX audience?

But my real point was, that MS advertises Live as part of the hardware purchase (it's listed under "in the box.") Even if "Silver" is "not substantial," it is nevertheless taken away from modded boxes, correct?

In addition, MS has not consistently enforced its EULA, by constantly disabling modded configurations, like Apple does with the iPhone (not that I like that.)

Instead, MS has been content to let a lively mod market develop around the XBOX, and has used the "modability" of the XBOX for a competitive advantage.

And while you may have modded because you are a "pirate," there are those who mod to be able to move saved games, or to back up their own game disks, or just for sport.

DawnFalcon · 11-18-2009, 04:24 PM

Well, if they differentiated properly between gold and silver in the advertising, you might have a point. But they don't, there's a free portion, and they'd be hard pressed to deny a "reasonable expectation" created by their advertising.

We'll see if there's a big spike in Xbox sales, but I'd expect that people won't be replacing the units, they'll be keeping them or buying a PS3.

Hellmark · 11-18-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

LOL, and who do you think is the most avid part of the XBOX audience?

But my real point was, that MS advertises Live as part of the hardware purchase (it's listed under "in the box.") Even if "Silver" is "not substantial," it is nevertheless taken away from modded boxes, correct?

In addition, MS has not consistently enforced its EULA, by constantly disabling modded configurations, like Apple does with the iPhone (not that I like that.)

Instead, MS has been content to let a lively mod market develop around the XBOX, and has used the "modability" of the XBOX for a competitive advantage.

And while you may have modded because you are a "pirate," there are those who mod to be able to move saved games, or to back up their own game disks, or just for sport.

Uhm, actually MS goes through ban sprees like this about every six months or so. This is far from being the first time they've banned people with modded consoles, but rather just another attempt out of many over the years.

DawnFalcon · 11-18-2009, 04:42 PM

No, this is rather different to their usual banning sprees, which are account bans for offences like profanity and playing legitimately purchased games before the street date.

dmaul1114 · 11-18-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

As a 360 owner, I have to say that XBL Silver is not substantial. You can buy some games and addons (but not all), and have others see your gamerpoints online. To buy all games, use netflix, play games online, etc you need Gold, which is NOT free.

Yep. And my main point above, is advertised as a feature or not--its still a separate service. Even with the free Silver account, you have to go online with the console, pick a screen name AND AGREE TO AN EULA during the process.

It's their network, and they can do what they want with it. Saying any less than that is just too socialist for me as private companies should be able to run their services they way they see fit as long as they aren't discriminating in ways that violate protected civil rights.

The only potential issue I have with this case is people paying and not being refunded for remaining time--I'd have no problem with that changing through a law suit or cheating people out of their money.

But otherwise, a company should 100% be able to run their network and services how they see fit.

DawnFalcon · 11-18-2009, 05:33 PM

You're mistaking a technical process for a legal one. The fact is, legally that dosn't matter, it's advertised as a feature of the Xbox 360. That is then, in UK law, precisely what it is. Indeed, there is actually a good legal argument for nulling the entirety of the Live EULA on those grounds. (As you don't agree to the EULA when you purchase it, and a second contract to use part of the features risks failing the test of fairness)

And there are such things as consumer rights, which all companies should respect. Companies which engage in activity like selling customer addresses to open email lists used by spammers, which you'd respect per your statement, cannot and should not be tolerated. Trust and taking part in the social contract are important elements of running a network.

Hellmark · 11-18-2009, 05:49 PM

Is Xbox Live advertised as a feature, or the availability of Xbox Live advertised as a feature? Here in the US, it is the availability, which does make for a legal difference, although most people cannot tell the difference.

Hellmark · 11-18-2009, 05:53 PM

If they didn't have some control over their network, then things would run amuck. Couldn't do anything with cheaters, or people who do try to ruin things for others.

Even back with the PS2, and the free online play, you still were bound to the rules of the terms for use (legally I might add). People have sued over this many times before, but no one has ever successfully won, unless they were unfairly banned (meaning not guilty of what they were accused of).

Also, if it wasn't legally valid, why haven't they been challenged so far? Pretty much all of the suits I've seen have been thrown out.

11-18-2009, 01:17 PM	#213
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	double post Last edited by DawnFalcon; 11-18-2009 at 01:23 PM.

11-18-2009, 03:35 PM	#216
deltop Zealot Posts: 136 Karma: 244 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Kobo Glo	Personally I think that if your the kind of person who listens to someone who calls them "dude" and who also shows them how to use "backups" aka pirated copies then you deserve to get banned But the fact is if your even slightly competent (which you have to be to change the firmware on your 360's drive) your going to be well aware of the consequences. The reason you haven't seen anyone sue ms is simple. The only people using these hacks are pirates (I know I was one of them). Only a tiny minority of people are getting banned without cause if any. Not enough to cause ms any real problems. Last edited by deltop; 11-18-2009 at 03:40 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Seriously thoughtful Video streaming to XBox 360 - what formats are supported?	HarryT	Lounge	13	12-12-2009 03:27 AM
Preparing for the Xbox 360's release	Evan	Lounge	8	11-06-2005 05:08 PM

11-18-2009, 01:23 PM	#214
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	dmaul - Again, not really accurate. There is a substantial free portion of the service, it is advertised as a feature of the 360 rather than a separate service, and we've just covered the fact that you cannot set your own rules in disregard of the law. The black and white moralistic stance you take here is rather amusing given the actions of many other people on this board, and it's not like I am arguing against Microsoft taking action, just the specifics of what they've chosen to do, because of the "toxic" side effects. Hellmark - And it doesn't work for forum edit-boxes, at least with the greasemonkey script I use. That's why I resorted to a third party one in the first place.

11-18-2009, 02:57 PM	#215
Sonist Apeist Posts: 2,126 Karma: 381090 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: The sunny part of California Device: Generic virtual reality story-experiential device	Silly me (dumb consumer) looks at the XBOX 360 info on the XBOX site, and what do I see? Ah, yes, the Arcade and the Elite come with Silver Membership to Live! Wow, I buy the box, and I get Live as part of the purchase! Then I go to the store, and see the ugly, noisy thing. So I debate between it and the PS3. But the geek in the store tells me, "Dude, the good thing about the XBOX is, that you can deck it out, put lights in the case, mod the chip so you can use back ups of games, and if you play with your buds at their place, you can back up the game and continue it over at your place later! And yeah, they say it voids your warranty, but these things don't break, dude, so who cares. Forget the PS3, buy the XBOX....." So I buy it. I get the blue neon lights inside, do the chip mod, I am happy moving saved games around, I upgrade Live so I can stream 30 Rock from Netflix. Then, one morning I wake up, and can't get on Netflix. Can't play games on line. I call MS and ask them "where is my Hulu?" and they tell me something about a EULA.... Of course, this would NEVER happen to the goody two-shoes, who know the difference between EULA and HULU, and who diligently read every word of every EULA. And who's unfailing virtuousness was recently reaffirmed by Microsoft, giving them the opportunity to gleefully preach to the sinners about it, in post after post. For the record, I do not own an XBOX - I returned an Elite within 3 days, because I found it too ugly, too noisy, and too hot-running.

11-18-2009, 04:24 PM	#219
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Well, if they differentiated properly between gold and silver in the advertising, you might have a point. But they don't, there's a free portion, and they'd be hard pressed to deny a "reasonable expectation" created by their advertising. We'll see if there's a big spike in Xbox sales, but I'd expect that people won't be replacing the units, they'll be keeping them or buying a PS3.

11-18-2009, 04:42 PM	#221
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	No, this is rather different to their usual banning sprees, which are account bans for offences like profanity and playing legitimately purchased games before the street date.

11-18-2009, 05:33 PM	#223
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	You're mistaking a technical process for a legal one. The fact is, legally that dosn't matter, it's advertised as a feature of the Xbox 360. That is then, in UK law, precisely what it is. Indeed, there is actually a good legal argument for nulling the entirety of the Live EULA on those grounds. (As you don't agree to the EULA when you purchase it, and a second contract to use part of the features risks failing the test of fairness) And there are such things as consumer rights, which all companies should respect. Companies which engage in activity like selling customer addresses to open email lists used by spammers, which you'd respect per your statement, cannot and should not be tolerated. Trust and taking part in the social contract are important elements of running a network.

11-18-2009, 05:49 PM	#224
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,592 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	Is Xbox Live advertised as a feature, or the availability of Xbox Live advertised as a feature? Here in the US, it is the availability, which does make for a legal difference, although most people cannot tell the difference.

11-18-2009, 05:53 PM	#225
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,592 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	If they didn't have some control over their network, then things would run amuck. Couldn't do anything with cheaters, or people who do try to ruin things for others. Even back with the PS2, and the free online play, you still were bound to the rules of the terms for use (legally I might add). People have sued over this many times before, but no one has ever successfully won, unless they were unfairly banned (meaning not guilty of what they were accused of). Also, if it wasn't legally valid, why haven't they been challenged so far? Pretty much all of the suits I've seen have been thrown out.

Advert

Advert