Sexism/racism etc in older fiction

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

The problem with making the statement "All races are exactly equal" is that it's demonstrably false, look at the winners of the men's 100m in the Olympics for the last 30 years, then do the same for 100m freestyle swimming. The Masai are, on average, taller than other races etc.

Don't confuse "exactly equal" with "exactly the same," please.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

I knew someone years ago who believed that a certain race had no souls. He had been raised with that "truth" pounded into his head by his father. This person was not a deep thinker, he didn't question what he had been taught. He believed error. He was sincere in his beliefs, but his beliefs were incorrect.

I know you meant, "had no souls, but we do." This way any appeal to the inability to "prove" the existence of souls is impotent.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I was attempting reductio ad absurdum.

I think this whole discussion has long passed that point.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Don't confuse "exactly equal" with "exactly the same," please.

This^. When people say "created equal," all that is meant, and all that should be inferred, is "created with equal rights under law." It most certainly does not mean equal in any sense of the word--that's patently absurd. I don't have the same quality or type or quantity of intelligence as Stephen Hawking. I'm not as successful as Spielsberg or any number of people. My legal rights, however, are the same.

That discussion, are people "equal" in gifts, is a rabbit hole and a distraction. It's demonstrably not so, thus, any time spent on it is wasted.

Hitch

[barryem]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Goose gander.

If me merely claiming that someone wasn't a person of conscience doesn't actually make it so, then by the same token, merely claiming that someone WAS a person of conscience doesn't actually make it so either.

"Missionary" does not automatically equal "person of conscience" in my experience.

I'm not sure what "Goose gander" means.

While I never actually met any of the missionaries who traveled to Hawaii to convert the heathen I have read a bit about them and the consensus seems to be that they went there with good motives.

Another example can be found in post revolutionary France where Nuns would baptize Jewish babies and then take them from their parents to save them from apostasy. Napoleonic law allowed this and that law wasn't changed until after WW2.

Anybody who thinks good people don't sometimes do evil hasn't really been paying much attention to history.

Barry

[barryem]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I did (do) express that view. Nobody who truly considers an entire ethnic group to be inferior to their own is a person of conscience.

Isn't that exactly the sort of generalization that leads to racism?

Barry

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by barryem

Isn't that exactly the sort of generalization that leads to racism?

Barry

How on earth could believing that no race is inherently superior or inferior to any other (and condemning anyone--regardless of race or ethnicity--who does) possibly lead to racism? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Nobody who truly considers an entire ethnic group to be inferior to their own is a person of conscience.

Originally Posted by barryem

Isn't that exactly the sort of generalization that leads to racism?

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

How on earth could believing that no race is inherently superior or inferior to any other (and condemning anyone--regardless of race or ethnicity--who does) possibly lead to racism? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Perhaps we should ask you to define conscience. As near as I can tell, if someone is acting in accordance with their beliefs, morals, ethics, etc., they are acting in good conscience.

Whereas you seem to be defining good conscience as behaving in a way that you would and bad conscience as behaving in a way that you would not.

As an example, would you consider driving a grandparent out into the dead of winter as being an act of good conscience if this meant that the rest of the family could survive until spring?

Otherwise, I would have to agree with Barryem. When you start demonizing someone for not sharing your beliefs, etc., you are starting down the same road that lead to Armenia, Darfur, Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, the Nazi Holocaust.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by barryem

Anybody who thinks good people don't sometimes do evil hasn't really been paying much attention to history.

Barry

Or to folk sayings.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Wikipedia has a full article on the many ways this is true:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_...ood_intentions

The biggest single group of pavers have historically been wrapped in moral certitude, the absolute and unwavering belief that their values trump everybody else's and consequences be damned.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Or to folk sayings.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Wikipedia has a full article on the many ways this is true:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_...ood_intentions

The biggest single group of pavers have historically been wrapped in moral certitude, the absolute and unwavering belief that their values trump everybody else's and consequences be damned.

And to quote Oliver Cromwell:-

I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.

[sjfan]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Or to folk sayings.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Or as Hemingway said, the “road to hell is paved with unbought stuffed dogs.”

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

How about species? Is it possible for anyone who is not a vegan to be a person of good conscience?

You've got that the wrong way round Paul.
Is it possible for someone who is a vegan to be a person of good conscience?
Vegans tend to be a bit judgy

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Perhaps we should ask you to define conscience. As near as I can tell, if someone is acting in accordance with their beliefs, morals, ethics, etc., they are acting in good conscience.

I freely admit that my working definition of people of good conscience is ever-so-slightly more exclusive than "nearly every human being in the whole of history."

Originally Posted by DNSB

Otherwise, I would have to agree with Barryem. When you start demonizing someone for not sharing your beliefs, etc., you are starting down the same road that lead to Armenia, Darfur, Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, the Nazi Holocaust.

Congratulations on a successful Godwinning.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

And to quote Oliver Cromwell:-

I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.

Words to live by these days.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Otherwise, I would have to agree with Barryem. When you start demonizing someone for not sharing your beliefs, etc., you are starting down the same road that lead to Armenia, Darfur, Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, the Nazi Holocaust.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I freely admit that my working definition of people of good conscience is ever-so-slightly more exclusive than "nearly every human being in the whole of history."

Congratulations on a successful Godwinning.

It's rather hard to give a list of genocides without the number one entry on the list. I was tempted add a few others from history but how many people in North America are going to go "genocide!" when you mention Holodomor? Shaka Zulu? Circassia? Even einsatzgruppen is going to be recognized by a rather small number of people these days.

Now discounting your sole reply, the question is if you find yourself disagreeing with my comment?

Are we stuck with "THE ONE TRUE CONSCIENCE"? Perhaps another term should be used instead of "good conscience"? Preferably, one that is less personal and more quantifiable.