Bob Dylan wins Nobel Prize for Literature

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by Billi

And I sincerely hope that Bob Dylan was "the door opener", that the Nobel Price Committee will honour other song-writers at regular intervals.

Assuming he accepts the prize, then as a Nobel Laureate he will be able to nominate candidates for the literature prize.

I suspect he would not, but if he did I wonder who they would be .

[doubleshuffle]

Erica Jong.

[Barty]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If he were dead he couldn't have won it. Nobel Prizes can't be awarded posthumously.

So Elvis has a shot?

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by william z

...I doubt if very many people actually read song lyrics, they listen to the words as they are sung and the music.

Or are you saying that music is literature?

I am assuming that you are asking if I think music can be literature rather than music is literature. In which case yes, lyrics can be literature if they meet the tests of being writing of artistic merit. To not accept that raises many contradictions such as where writing of artistic merit is later set to music then one would have to believe that setting to music kills literature.

Just one example is The Lords Prayer which is a prayer in the Bible, a book that is widely agreed as being of much literary merit. The Prayer appears in the Bible as writing of artistic merit, however the intention is that it is to be spoken; and over time there have been many times where it has been sung (and it may have been an original intention that it was acceptable to sing it as well as speak it, no one knows now).

One may then question at what point does the Prayer lose its place in literature. Is that lost even when read to oneself as words in the Bible because it was written with the intention of it being spoken, or is that lost when it is spoken, or is it lost when it is sung? To my mind (and for the sake of clarity I am only using this as a well known example, I am not religious) it remains through all three of these renditions as very fine literature, whether that be in the King James version, or a respected modern version such as the ESV.

Of course, the same can be asked of the many other works of literary merit that have been written, then later spoken (as works are) and then later sung (as some are). At what point do they lose their merit? Are works that are written without the thought of them later being spoken or being sung somehow inoculated against losing their literary merit?

Regarding your comment expressing your doubts if very many people actually read song lyrics, then in the case of Dylan's lyrics I think you are due for a surprise as they are very widely read and discussed. Have a browse around the internet. Due to his popularity over a long period of time I would not be surprised if more people have read his lyrics than the numbers who have read the words of most other (perhaps any) previous Nobel Literature Laureates.

In the end your have your view and I don't think it will change. From my own point of view I have no difficulty accepting fine lyrics as being part of our literary heritage. So I will leave it at that.

[copyrite]

Back in the day when I bought vinyl I would read lyrics all the time. Today, not so much. Am listening to a podcast where they are going through an artist's catalog from A-Z analyzing the music/lyrics.

from my Galaxy S6

[BearMountainBooks]

I read song lyrics. I have the sound turned off on my computer and often read lyrics before even listening to a song. I said earlier that the best songs have a story in them. They are literature for me. Mark Knopfler has written some great stories that he happens to set to music. Prairie Wedding is a fabulous Western/romance. He also wrote a mafia type song "Don't Crash the Ambulance." He has a crime song in "Postcard from Paraguay." Really great mystery/detective story: "On Every Street." Love the line: Somewhere your fingerprints remain concrete. But the whole "song" is a great story.

[copyrite]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Mark Knopfler

Your post made me listen to Romeo and Juliet!



from my Galaxy S6

[ApK]

Originally Posted by copyrite

Your post made me listen to Romeo and Juliet!

When I was in college, I mentioned to someone that that was my favorite song.

He said "It's everyone's favorite song."

For college kids in the '80s, he probably wasn't too far off.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by copyrite

Your post made me listen to Romeo and Juliet!



from my Galaxy S6

I hated that song until I heard him perform it live! He does a little something different every time he plays it and he does it at most of his concerts. I always thought it was SUCH a dreary heartbreak song, but when we went to see him last year, the MUSIC they did with that song was utterly fabulous. Of course, the story didn't change, but at least they improved on it! It should be noted that I loathed the story Romeo and Juliet and that probably colored my opinion of the song when I first heard it.

[tubemonkey]

That's a dumb Romeo & Juliet. This one is much better. Just ignore the stupid dancing and the dorky clothes, hairstyles, and haircuts.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by william z

But I do not think song lyrics are literature in the same sense that bodies of fiction or poetry are; if any song lyric writer thinks his or her work is poetry and stand alone without music, then they should publish it as poetry(if they could find a publisher) and see if anybody reads it

Once again, he has. Here are two of his volumes.

https://www.amazon.com/Lyrics-1961-2.../dp/1476797706

https://www.amazon.com/Tarantula-Bob.../dp/B001D1SRX2

[william z]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

I am assuming that you are asking if I think music can be literature rather than music is literature. In which case yes, lyrics can be literature if they meet the tests of being writing of artistic merit. To not accept that raises many contradictions such as where writing of artistic merit is later set to music then one would have to believe that setting to music kills literature.

Just one example is The Lords Prayer which is a prayer in the Bible, a book that is widely agreed as being of much literary merit. The Prayer appears in the Bible as writing of artistic merit, however the intention is that it is to be spoken; and over time there have been many times where it has been sung (and it may have been an original intention that it was acceptable to sing it as well as speak it, no one knows now).

One may then question at what point does the Prayer lose its place in literature. Is that lost even when read to oneself as words in the Bible because it was written with the intention of it being spoken, or is that lost when it is spoken, or is it lost when it is sung? To my mind (and for the sake of clarity I am only using this as a well known example, I am not religious) it remains through all three of these renditions as very fine literature, whether that be in the King James version, or a respected modern version such as the ESV.

Of course, the same can be asked of the many other works of literary merit that have been written, then later spoken (as works are) and then later sung (as some are). At what point do they lose their merit? Are works that are written without the thought of them later being spoken or being sung somehow inoculated against losing their literary merit?

Regarding your comment expressing your doubts if very many people actually read song lyrics, then in the case of Dylan's lyrics I think you are due for a surprise as they are very widely read and discussed. Have a browse around the internet. Due to his popularity over a long period of time I would not be surprised if more people have read his lyrics than the numbers who have read the words of most other (perhaps any) previous Nobel Literature Laureates.

In the end your have your view and I don't think it will change. From my own point of view I have no difficulty accepting fine lyrics as being part of our literary heritage. So I will leave it at that.

No, I will not change my mind. I am as a big a fan of popular music and not so popular music as I am of literature. I am familiar with the lyrics of thousands of songs of many genres, probably most of which you have never heard. Most song lyrics are inconsequential, some are very good, some are excellent. Some have a message, some protest something or other, some make insightful commentary on important events.

Nevertheless, I do not think song lyrics are literature, they are song lyrics written to be sung to the accompaniment of music. You state that I would be surprised that Dylan's lyrics are widely read and discussed. Why would I be surprised by that? Doubtless Bob Dylan has a couple of million fans who think his songs and lyrics are the greatest thing since sliced bread. However, I can assure you that not everybody has that opinion, and I doubt very much that anyone who is not a fan of Dylan's music would bother reading his lyrics. I personally do not think they are anything special, I have heard many, many better.

Many great singers, composers and lyricists were immensly popular in their day, much more popular than Bob Dylan. Singers and songwriters who enjoyed great popularity and were household names once upon a time are now largely forgotten. Dylan has a large fanbase, but I would bet they are mostly of a certain generation, when they and Dylan are gone, so will his music be gone. I would also bet that say, 50 years from now Dylan and his songs will be forgotten also.

Song lyrics are song lyrics, literature is literature.

[Krazykiwi]

Originally Posted by william z

Song lyrics are song lyrics, literature is literature.

I already posted about this, but I'll say it again. While I don't expect you to change your mind, that is an opinion probably based in a particular literary tradition that separates the two.

The Nobel committee is Swedish, and the Swedish literary tradition for the past 1200 years or so since we've had written literature here, is to do no such thing.

My daughter is currently analysing Swedish poet Gustav Fröding (by FAR my favourite Swedish poet) in her high school classes. Or is that Gustav Fröding, my favourite Swedish songwriter? Nearly all of his poems have been set to music, beginning in his lifetime and most recently in 2012 where this was a major hit in Sweden, some 110 years after it was written. This is one of Sweden's most popular rock bands btw, who normally don't sing in Swedish.



Cornelis Vreeswijk was a major Swedish poet. Or songwriter. He's reknowned as both. He published books of poetry that included some of his lyrics, and many of his songs were very close to Dylan's style. Despite actually being Dutch he was Sweden's "nationaltrubadur", I doubt I need to translate that, but the fact Sweden has such a thing where other countries have a Poet Laureate

This has been published as both a song and a poem, for instance:


Here's another translation (the one in the video is better though.)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/somlig...ken-shoes.html

Going back further, we have things like the Eriksrönikan: The official records of Swedish kings were recorded in written verse, and regularly [I]sung[I] to the public - a tradition also found in German, and in French (Chanson de geste - "Song of heroic deeds") much more than in English. Think of the "Song of Roland" for instance. This tradition wasn't entirely missing in English with "The Ballad of....", although it developed in a later period of the middle ages is essentially a similar artform. And although the word ballad apparently means "dance song", the lyrics were sold on the street in broadsheets. Where's the line there between poetry and song?

Wikipedia's entry on Modern Swedish Literature even brings up the 1970's progressive rock movement and mentions the fact that many involved in it were published simultaneously in other literary circles: Ulf Lundell, still recording music and publishing poetry both, wrote Sweden's equivalent of "On the Road" in the novel "Jack".

To pull this back to Dylan, not only does Sweden have a very very long history of blending poetry and music and treating them as essentially the same thing, but there's also a long history of using verse to promote social change, in much the same way Dylan first came to prominence.

In the end, you can tut tut about it all you wish, but from a Swedish point of view, it's just not that big of a deal.

(I will finally point out, before anyone else does, just because up here we tend to mix up poetry and music, doesn't mean it's all good poetry/music. I don't think there's much danger of Taylor Swift winning the prize any time. But I can think of a couple of hip-hop artists who maybe might.)

[william z]

Krazykiwi - That may be the tradition in Sweden, but I don't think it is the tradition in the USA or most of the world. I know of a few poems that have been set to music, but not very many.

Here is a view of the difference between poetry and song lyrics (not mine, but this is my view also):

"Since the invention of the printing press, poetry is delivered mainly to the eye. Lyrics are delivered mainly to the ear."

As you probably know, Dylan surfaced in the early 1960's at the time of the short-lived "folk revival" that made "folk songs" very popular for a short time. He recorded 3 albums at that time, the first which contained only 2 of his original songs. If I remember correctly, the next 2 albums were mostly his own compositions and one of them "Blowing In the Wind" became a minor mainstream hit; that was really the song that made his reputation. The whole folk song thing was embraced by the "counter-culture" in the USA that also came into being at that time, the "flower children" and "hippies" who were anti-war and anti-establishment; Dylan was their hero and kind of their spokesmen. He inspired some other similar songwriters and performers who never gained anywhere near the popularity that Bob Dylan did.

He felt he was being used, manipulated and constrained by both the folk and the protest movement, so after that he switched to rock. Whether or not any of his songs after the early ones are great poetry or not I have no idea, never having listened to them.

In Sweden song lyrics may be poetry, to me they are not. I do not think Dylan's lyrics are especially good; certainly not worthy of a Nobel Prize for literature. His songs have won awards - for songs.

I suspect Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature for political reasons, something like Obama was awarded the Peace Prize, which left observers mystified.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Barty

So Elvis has a shot?

No, because:

1. He's dead.
2. He didn't write his own songs.