What is piracy?

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

A used book store owner has no obligation to the author. Look up the first-sale doctrine you were espousing earlier.

So why doesn't the first sale doctrine apply to used digital goods? A used bookstore owner/street book seller/homeless person might not have a legal obligation to the works creator, but do they have a moral obligation?

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

First, many of the most important books, and almost all serious investigative non-fiction, are not the work of an isolated author, but of a group of people whose work, and compensation, is coordinated by a publisher. So you should be substituting the word "publisher" in the above sentence for "author." But you can't, because then your scheme to have a transnational entity pay "authors," based on something like the number of downloads, would be revealed as crony capitalism.

Before a book is uploaded to the network, the network admins would require a single account for payments to be distributed to, problem solved.

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

So let's rewind in a small example back to that: you insist constantly that artistic goods don't have enough value to be paid for them

In physical books this might be hardcovers where people agreed to pay more for a more presentable product and earlier access because they value their personal joy of having it ASAP high enough. Baen does same with eArcs.

People choose! to pay near tripled price for early access. They are free not do so and wait instead.

In the meantime we all still keep waiting for a statement of yours about the free access to your stuff.

Everything has value. I only think that we should have universal access to all texts, meaning we must be able to read the text before deciding to compensate the creator. The value of said text could be determined by the number of people who have spent a considerable length of time reading the text. Or it could be based upon quantity of downloads over time. My point is that all economic theories are subject to change.

Digital goods can be shipped instantaneously to anyone with a network connection. There is no need to wait for access. Anyone who asks you to wait for access to a digital good is most likely trying to generate some kind of artificial need in the mind of a potential consumer.

What stuff are you referring to?

Originally Posted by tompe

The point is that it is obvious OK to lend a book but that possible deprives author of income so obviously it is OK to deprive an author of income. So the "depriving" argument is not valid for copying an ebook and giving away.

I'm not sure it can ever be shown that lending a book deprives an author of income. Perhaps in a specific case, where someone was lent a book and then said "Since I was lent this book I choose not to send money to the creator." But that's not how it is generally. We all read thousands of words every day...

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Everything has value. I only think that we should have universal access to all texts, meaning we must be able to read the text before deciding to compensate the creator.

Failed. Again. As I explained before the value is influenced by individual aspects. So it is simple: if you don't value a good <=n where n is the amount set by the seller you are outside of his targeted buyers and don't get it. Either recalculate your personal evaluation or accept the fact of not receiving.
Wether the sellers calculation results in a small group of buyers due to high prize or vice versa is entirely his affair and no of the non-buyers. That's economy. Everything else is politics and as such not to be discussed here.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

So why doesn't the first sale doctrine apply to used digital goods?

Doesn't it?

A used bookstore owner/street book seller/homeless person might not have a legal obligation to the works creator, but do they have a moral obligation?

This is a nonsensical question which we can't possible offer an answer to till we understand what you think this moral obligation is.

Care to debate the morality of hypocrisy? Like espousing the ideals of freeloadism, yet continuing to charge for your book on Amazon.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Failed. Again. As I explained before the value is influenced by individual aspects. So it is simple: if you don't value a good <=n where n is the amount set by the seller you are outside of his targeted buyers and don't get it. Either recalculate your personal evaluation or accept the fact of not receiving.
Wether the sellers calculation results in a small group of buyers due to high prize or vice versa is entirely his affair and no of the non-buyers. That's economy. Everything else is politics and as such not to be discussed here.

You fail to see that value and price do not need to apply if nothing is ever sold.

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Doesn't it?


This is a nonsensical question which we can't possible offer an answer to till we understand what you think this moral obligation is.

Care to debate the morality of hypocrisy? Like espousing the ideals of freeloadism, yet continuing to charge for your book on Amazon.

IMO, the first sale doctrine applies to everything that can be sold. When we speak of books, in the past we spoke of the container for the book, the paperback for instance. You bought the paper and then you resold the paper, the meaning behind the ink printed onto the paper was never yours to buy. So how could it ever be sold??

TBH, I haven't logged onto my Amazon KDP account for awhile. You can get my book on feedbooks if you like, http://www.feedbooks.com/userbook/19572/bakery-blues

Funnily enough I included a paypal donation button in that feedbooks version and someone sent me 1.50 from India the other day

The moral obligation to compensate the creator? Why wouldn't you feel morally obligated to contribute to the creator of a work that has had an impact upon your life?

[Freeshadow]

It depends on the impact. In other words: be careful what you wish for.
Considering what your demands of robbing artists do to my sense of honour I'd willingly contribute some tar and feathers to your skin, and add a serious whipping as a freebie. I'd even label all this as an art happening and let people watch for free.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Everything has value. I only think that we should have universal access to all texts, meaning we must be able to read the text before deciding to compensate the creator.

Why should books be any different from other goods. Can you buy a steak in Safeway and eat it before deciding whether you should pay? If you go to a play or a movie, do they let you decide after viewing whether you will pay and how much?

Some ebook retailers will let you return an ebook, and also many offer previews. Add the many independent reviews available and it is easier to know whether a book is worth reading than most other merchandise.

Of course a lazy or greedy person might prefer to just take the book instead and pretend to themselves that they might pay some day if the book changes their lives. Not much chance of that I am afraid.

You have decided that all books (texts) should be free and I must ask who died and put you in charge?

Helen

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Why should books be any different from other goods. Can you buy a steak in Safeway and eat it before deciding whether you should pay? If you go to a play or a movie, do they let you decide after viewing whether you will pay and how much?

Some ebook retailers will let you return an ebook, and also many offer previews. Add the many independent reviews available and it is easier to know whether a book is worth reading than most other merchandise.

Of course a lazy or greedy person might prefer to just take the book instead and pretend to themselves that they might pay some day if the book changes their lives. Not much chance of that I am afraid.

You have decided that all books (texts) should be free and I must ask who died and put you in charge?

Helen

Well yes, you can eat a steak while shopping in the Safeway before you decide if you would like to purchase additional steaks (retention of longterm customers is more important than a single sale), that's just corporate policy...

I must ask you what benefit withholding a text from someone who may not be able to afford it accords? Should we not make sure that everyone is able to read whatever they wish to?

[plib]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you are attempting to apply the "Socratic method", you may wish to pause and consider what happened to Socrates as the result of being a pain in the ass.

And he may also consider how subsequent generations assessed the importance and standing of Socrates, compared to those who found him a pain in the ass.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Why wouldn't you feel morally obligated to contribute to the creator of a work that has had an impact upon your life?

There are many, many charities that I have felt a pang telling me it would be good to contribute to them for every one that I actually contribute to.

If you read through this thread, you would get the idea that people actually behave in accord with their value system. Another possibility, though, is that people realize that they don't have to pay, and then come up with a justification. Hey, it wasn't a bad book, but it's not like it had an impact on my life, so why should I pay?

What happened to your earlier plan for some quasi-governmental entity to compensate creators? Does the prospect of this being a tremendous boon to the big six, and bestselling FoxNews authors, now make this less appealing?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Well yes, you can eat a steak while shopping in the Safeway before you decide if you would like to purchase additional steaks (retention of longterm customers is more important than a single sale), that's just corporate policy...

I must ask you what benefit withholding a text from someone who may not be able to afford it accords? Should we not make sure that everyone is able to read whatever they wish to?

Are you saying that Safeway will let you eat a steak in their store without paying for it? They won't let you eat a cookie or a grape (I have seen people hustled out of the store for doing that) And where would you cook that free steak or do people just stand their eating raw steaks till they find a good one?

And the benefit that witholding a text from someone who cannot pay for it is/are the same one(s) applying to all commercially sold goods. If I walk into a store or onto a car lot, they will withhold the goods unless I pay, whether I can afford them or not.

Plus as you know many books(texts) are available in libraries as ebooks or paper books. The excuse that they are not always available immediately is just immature and greedy.

If you want a book and cannot immediately acess it, you can always wait till you can afford it or it becomes available.

And for the edification of all of us, please give the location/address of the Safeway store that lets you eat the steak before you pay for it.

Helen

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Are you saying that Safeway will let you eat a steak in their store without paying for it? They won't let you eat a cookie or a grape (I have seen people hustled out of the store for doing that) And where would you cook that free steak or do people just stand their eating raw steaks till they find a good one?

And the benefit that witholding a text from someone who cannot pay for it is/are the same one(s) applying to all commercially sold goods. If I walk into a store or onto a car lot, they will withhold the goods unless I pay, whether I can afford them or not.

Plus as you know many books(texts) are available in libraries as ebooks or paper books. The excuse that they are not always available immediately is just immature and greedy.

If you want a book and cannot immediately acess it, you can always wait till you can afford it or it becomes available.

And for the edification of all of us, please give the location/address of the Safeway store that lets you eat the steak before you pay for it.

Helen

Well, your locality might have legislations concerning the preparation of cooked foods. This might hinder your consumption of a cooked steak on the premises of a particular Safeway. But I assure you that if you were to ask for a sample of meat from the meat counter of your local Safeway, that the proprietor behind the counter would be happy to provide you with one. Rare meat is not for everyone of course, but the taste should give you an inclination as to what the meat will taste like when it is properly prepared.

I still think that many are locked into the idea of physical information. Why, if a text is available as a stream of electrons, should we have to wait in order to read it?

And if a text is currently not available thus, should those who undertake to transfer the text into electrons be punished for doing so???

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Well, your locality might have legislations concerning the preparation of cooked foods. This might hinder your consumption of a cooked steak on the premises of a particular Safeway. But I assure you that if you were to ask for a sample of meat from the meat counter of your local Safeway, that the proprietor behind the counter would be happy to provide you with one. Rare meat is not for everyone of course, but the taste should give you an inclination as to what the meat will taste like when it is properly prepared.

I still think that many are locked into the idea of physical information. Why, if a text is available as a stream of electrons, should we have to wait in order to read it?

And if a text is currently not available thus, should those who undertake to transfer the text into electrons be punished for doing so???

I know that in Canada and most of the United States it is illegal to serve raw meat because of the mad cow disease, e-coli, parasites etc., and most stores and restaurants would not let you eat a raw steak on the premises as they can be sued. You obviously patronise a Safeway with no knowledge of food safety and the legal consequences. (Actually I am pretty sure you are making the whole thing up about raw meat samples as no meat department manager could be that stupid).

And why should we not wait unless we are able and willing to pay for something. Nothing to do with electrons. Easy to steal does not make it right to steal. Someone worked to produce the book. We can work and pay money to get the book or wait until we can legitimately get it from the library.

And any educational justification falls into absurdity if presented by someone who actually worked for Safeway and says that they hand out tasty samples of raw beef.

Helen

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I know that in Canada and most of the United States it is illegal to serve raw meat because of the mad cow disease, e-coli, parasites etc., and most stores and restaurants would not let you eat a raw steak on the premises as they can be sued. You obviously patronise a Safeway with no knowledge of food safety and the legal consequences. (Actually I am pretty sure you are making the whole thing up about raw meat samples as no meat department manager could be that stupid).

Are you sure, Helen? A Google search for "steak tartare Canada" reveals innumerable restaurants who seem to serve raw beef in Canada.

[odiakkoh]

I know a lot of restaurants have company policies in place where meat can't be any less than medium done (no medium rare) but I don't think it's law. Quick googling found an article about an ethiopian restaurant in los angeles and it's raw beef dishes dated last year.

[Fluribus]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

It seems that we have all of those things in abundance already.

If you're referring to wisdom, knowledge, power and such...no, we're stumbling in the dark. And compared to infinity...we're smaller than a grain of sand compared to the universe.